flushes at 25NL Bovada (1 Viewer)

[grebe]

I think I am ok with how I played both of these, but here goes....first hand's first:

I just sat down. I watch a hand unfold where I am not even dealt in go all in post flop with 4-5 guys seeing a 4 bet pre. Last raiser shoves and gets called by a guy holding A4 suited and having no part of anything. KK wins, donk insta rebuys short.

I am dealt in cutoff and have posted bb. Donk min raises to .50, two callers in front and I call as well. Both blinds call and UTG limper bets $3.50. EVERYBODY in front of me calls! So I do too. If it folds around here, I fold as well, but with tremendous pot odds and a hand that will easily be able to play post flop, I think nothing to do but call here as played. Thoughts?

Flop: (pot is $17ish)

-checks to UTG, who shoves for $14. Donk calls for about 4. middle position calls leaving about $8 behind. I think this is an easy shove, which I do. Middle position calls his remaining stack.
I gin on the river for a pot of roughly $85. I am not checking math here, but those numbers should be ballpark. UTG had, donk had , Middle position had offsuit for a flopped 2 pair.

Thoughts here?

(edited for card emojis)

 

[Eriks]

Both pre and flop seem reasonable. I’d play the same way.

 

[Legend5555]

How deep was everyone? Especially the limo reraiser.

 

[grebe]

How deep was everyone? Especially the limo reraiser.

How deep was everyone? Especially the limo reraiser.

He started with about $17. 3.50 for the pre flop, them the 14 shove post flop.

Donk was about 8

Middle was about 21

 

[Eriks]

How deep was everyone? Especially the limo reraiser.

Good point. Might make this close pre

 

[grebe]

OK, I felt like that hand was pretty standard. Here is more interesting hand, so we will go street for street (all stacks and bets will be approximate and rounded off):

Hero is SB with with $89
BB has $25
Villain is UTG +1 and has $45

We are playing deep stack poker with Villains effective stack of 180 BB's here.

Villain makes it .75 folds around to hero in SB. hero calls, BB calls. Folding is out of the question I think, so the decision here is 3 bet or call. Possible 3 bet, but given the stronger range of early position open I call.

 

[skylines]

What position is Villain raising from?

 

[grebe]

What position is Villain raising from?

UTG +1

 

[JustinInMN]

Villain makes it .75 folds around to hero in SB. hero calls, BB calls. Folding is out of the question I think, so the decision here is 3 bet or call. Possible 3 bet, but given the stronger range of early position open I call.

I probably call, but I think folding is a closer decision than you think, especially if you read villain to be tight UTG+1. This is an easier call from the BB than the SB for sure, but with only 0.10 in the pot, out of position against an early position raise, this hand is on the low end of average to me, and I could fold it against a tight villian. But on average, I think it's okay to call.

Also important, is this a 6-handed or 9-handed game? In a 6-handed game this is probably an easier call as well.

 

[grebe]

I probably call, but I think folding is a closer decision than you think, especially if you read villain to be tight UTG+1. This is an easier call from the BB than the SB for sure, but with only 0.10 in the pot, out of position against an early position raise, this hand is on the low end of average to me, and I could fold it against a tight villian. But on average, I think it's okay to call.

Also important, is this a 6-handed or 9-handed game? In a 6-handed game this is probably an easier call as well.

9 handed. This table has been pretty action heavy for the 2 orbits I have been there, mostly due to the donk dumping his short stacks with nothing, but I don't have much of a read on villain except he had obviously won at least 1 nice pot to be up almost a buyin.

Also, I don't call thinking I have a better hand than him, I call because I have a decent drawing hand and we are deep.

 

[JustinInMN]

Also, I don't call thinking I have a better hand than him, I call because I have a decent drawing hand and we are deep.

Fair enough, but I guess my point is UTG +1 range is going to be tighter than a late position range that will likely include many more blind steal raises. If he is on something like only 99+, AK, AQ from UTG + 1 to raise, QTs runs pretty horribly against that range and save your money. Against half of that range, you are worse than 3-1 against, and maybe as bad as 9-1 against QQ+, with the pot laying less than 2-1.

So to call, I would have to hope this villain is at least somewhat looser than that, (Has some AJ, KJ, and lower pairs in his raising range, for example)

All that said, on average I am going to call, but against a tight villain, I think it's a clear fold.

I certainly think 3-betting is out of the question unless villain is maniacal. There is no sense in bloating the pot when you know you are likely a dog, and will just be lighting the raise on fire if villain finds a four bet.

So I am okay with the call, but I can see villains and circumstances in which I would fold this pre.

 

[JustinInMN]

Also I am finding this interesting as an aside. In PCF set design threads we often identify 0.25-0.25 blinds as pretty analogous to 0.10-0.25 blinds to avoid designing lower chips that only see use for the small blind.

This particular spot, the size of the SB makes a pretty big difference. In 0.10-0.25 blinds, the SB needs to call 0.65 to win 1.10 or about 1.7-1. In 0.25-0.25 blinds the SB needs to call 0.50 to win 1.25 or a clear 2.5-1, which would make this call far more appealing, even against a strong range.

Those 3 nickels make a pretty big difference here in terms of pot odds.

 

[grebe]

Pot is $2.25 (minus pennies for the rake)

Flop:

Hero: check BB: Check Villain: Check.

* Hero checks almost 100 percent of his holdings here.

Turn:

Hero: leads for $2 targeting AK-AJ, and any big diamond.
BB: fold
Villain: call

 

[Legend5555]

First hand:

With only a $17 stack I'm not sure what you are hoping for on the flop. Given all the stack sizes you have zero fold equity on most flops that are good enough to go with. You are getting good immediate odds, but we are talking about going multiway with basically no implied odds because most of the stacks are short. The only thing you really have going for you is position and the fact that you close the action pre and likely close the action on the flop given the exact situation. I think I lean toward a fold pre to the limp reraise.

Second hand:

I think this is pretty close between folding and calling. It's an obvious call or possibly 3 bet in position. But playing speculative hands from the SB is usually bad in most circumstances. It's harder to realize your equity. And a hand like QT is one where a lot of value is gained by semi bluffing. Plus, just calling in the SB often gets the BB involved, and then we are 3 ways OOP with a speculative hand. That said, I don't hate the call. It's just far from automatic.

 

[JustinInMN]

Flop:

Hero: check BB: Check Villain: Check.

* Hero checks almost 100 percent of his holdings here.

Good if 100% check is your strategy after flatting the SB pre. I think that's a fine strategy as well. I would just bear in mind that you would really probably want to bet smaller diamonds here, so I would caution against calling with smaller suited hands pre unless you want to deviate your strategy to balance the small flush bets with some other hands/semi-bluffs.

Turn:

Hero: leads for $2 targeting AK-AJ, and any big diamond.
BB: fold
Villain: call

I think it's fine to lead the turn here for this exact reason. The only argument I could come up with for sizing downward would be to try and get action from the KK-TT part of villain's range, but it would just be shocking to me to be shown that after villain checked the flop behind. You could maybe size down to see if the villain has the wants to play as well. But that feels pretty specific. You should usually get called by an ace here. (And obviously the .) You will probably get called by the or as well, but I feel it's unlikely villain has those without an ace anyway unless he is raising KQ, or KJ pre.

The only think you are worried about is an better flush here, and given the pf raise, it would have to be specifically or , I would assume. (Maybe if villain is looser than average.) In other words, holding two broadway diamonds yourself, you block bigger flushes to 2-3 precise combos. I think clearly villain has enough here where you can go for this value and it will make up for the rare beats.

 

[grebe]

First hand:

With only a $17 stack I'm not sure what you are hoping for on the flop. Given all the stack sizes you have zero fold equity on most flops that are good enough to go with. You are getting good immediate odds, but we are talking about going multiway with basically no implied odds because most of the stacks are short. The only thing you really have going for you is position and the fact that you close the action pre and likely close the action on the flop given the exact situation. I think I lean toward a fold pre to the limp reraise.

Second hand:

I think this is pretty close between folding and calling. It's an obvious call or possibly 3 bet in position. But playing speculative hands from the SB is usually bad in most circumstances. It's harder to realize your equity. And a hand like QT is one where a lot of value is gained by semi bluffing. Plus, just calling in the SB often gets the BB involved, and then we are 3 ways OOP with a speculative hand. That said, I don't hate the call. It's just far from automatic.

First hand: I had a $25 stack. the pot was $17 after all the calls. Im not usually looking at playing A4s for this many bb's pre, but if I hit a trip 4, 2 pair or clubs, I will have hands that beat many other good hands. Sure, I could have folded here.

Second hand: Show of hands, how many actually play this tight as to fold this hand pre??? Going off a range calculator, this is barely out of top 10 percent.

 

[Legend5555]

First hand: I had a $25 stack. the pot was $17 after all the calls. Im not usually looking at playing A4s for this many bb's pre, but if I hit a trip 4, 2 pair or clubs, I will have hands that beat many other good hands. Sure, I could have folded here.

Second hand: Show of hands, how many actually play this tight as to fold this hand pre??? Going off a range calculator, this is barely out of top 10 percent.

Your stack is irrelevant. Only matters that the raiser and one of the callers are short. If you ran the math on all flops assuming those two are always getting it in, I'd imagine you come out a loser calling here preflop given how many flops you just give up on. Once the action happens the way it does on that particular flop, then obviously just the naked nut flush draw seems good enough on that board to go with given the price. After all 3 ahead of you basically get it in (I'm assuming the guy with $ behind is always going to call your shove) then you only need 38%. Funny enough though, you don't have that. You only have 34% as the cards lie. This is what can go horribly awry when playing hands like this against shorter stacks.

The QT isn't about where it stands in terms of %, it's how much of your equity you are going to realize against a strong range playing from the worst position. I'd like it better in literally any other position at the table. Though calling from something like UTG+2 wouldn't be great either. I'd be surprised if calling QTs here is better than break even.

 

[grebe]

After all 3 ahead of you basically get it in (I'm assuming the guy with $ behind is always going to call your shove) then you only need 38%. Funny enough though, you don't have that. You only have 34% as the cards lie. This is what can go horribly awry when playing hands like this against shorter stacks.

So, I am getting 4:1 I think? putting in $20 on post flop to win about $80. I should only need 5 outs here to make this break even, correct? Just going off the naked flush draw gives me 9 ignoring any A or 4 outside of runner runner (not knowing what clubs are out there before decision time) using the 4x rule gives me 36%...or 3:1. I understand outs can be overcalculated in multiway pots, but those 9 outs are to the outright nuts.

Do I have any conceptual errors in my maths here?

 

[Eriks]

I don’t like the turn lead in the second hand. That card is terrible for your range but smashes his. Since he checked back the flop it’s unlikely he has TT-KK and more likely he has AT+.

Just check and let him value bet/take a stab with some random holding. By leading you’re saying you have a flush/set/2-pair/or a good draw that missed the checkraise on the flop. You’re never gonna lead say 98s when that A hits

 

[grebe]

I see I am only getting 3:1, not 4:1

 

[Legend5555]

$17 pre
$14 shove
$4 call all in
$14 call + $7.5 call your shove

So you have to call $21.50 to win $56.50. Giving you 2.63 to 1 on a call. So you need 38% equity to call profitably here.

You have to look at it like this, how much equity do you need to win at least the 21.50 back on this call.

56.50 x .38 = 21.47.

56.50 x .34 = 19.21.

If you just look at your raw equity vs the $78 the pot will be after you are all in (and that's not including rake which makes a BIG difference at these stakes) you profit in the hand overall. But that doesn't make the call correct mathematically.

 

[grebe]

Pot is $2.25 (minus pennies for the rake)

Flop:

Hero: check BB: Check Villain: Check.

* Hero checks almost 100 percent of his holdings here.

Turn:

Hero: leads for $2 targeting AK-AJ, and any big diamond.
BB: fold
Villain: call

Pot: $6.00

River:

Final board:

Hero: bet $5 looking to induce action from AA, AK-AJ, and 2 pair hands. I expect a call from 1 pairs and some weak 2 pairs, and raises from A10 plus. I cant think of a bluff raise here, except maybe an ace holding?

Villain: Raise to $16

 

[Legend5555]

Gross.

Most good players would probably just bet their K high and A high flushes on the flop in position. And most good players would probably bet the Ad on the flop. And most players aren't going to bluff the Ad here when they have showdown value.

A rec player would more often slowplay the flopped nut or 2nd nut flush though.

Hard to imagine bluffs, but people at these stakes do weird things sometimes. Without any other info, I just call and hope the player is a rec with some weird bluff or lower flush. You only need to be good 1 in 3.45 times for this to be profitable.

 

[Eriks]

Weird line from villain. I say he’s most likely value raise is a strangely played A-high flush. Or he has some kind random bluff. I’d just call

 

[JustinInMN]

I don’t like the turn lead in the second hand. That card is terrible for your range but smashes his. Since he checked back the flop it’s unlikely he has TT-KK and more likely he has AT+.

Just check and let him value bet/take a stab with some random holding.

My only counter argument to this would be if Villain can pair the ace here and still find the check button, this is an absolute disaster for hero. I think hero gets two streets of value almost assuredly by taking the lead on the turn.

If hero check-raises the turn, he may risk losing the ace right there an only collecting on that. If he check calls the turn, hero is probably going to have to lead the river or villain is probably going to take a cheap showdown after checking unless he is two pair plus. I think the best way to try and get two streets from a hero that likely has an ace is to lead the turn and let villain play bluff catcher.

Hero: bet $5 looking to induce action from AA, AK-AJ, and 2 pair hands. I expect a call from 1 pairs and some weak 2 pairs, and raises from A10 plus.

Yup, I think you lead the river again, and I like this sizing again because you really can be pretty sure if you have the best of it, he has to call with an ace here.

I cant think of a bluff raise here, except maybe an ace holding?

Villain: Raise to $16

So this is a little gross, but I think an pretty easy call. We did identify the the 2-3 flush combos villain would have to have to have you beat here. I don't think villain has lesser flushes or straights unless he is really raising maniacally from UTG + 1 preflop. I think AT is a strong possibility. Interpreting your lead on the turn as a made aces up that he just outdrew, or that you slowplayed 97 and he just outdrew it, or maybe he thinks you played AJ or AQ carefully pre and he just outdrew it. Maybe he slowplayed 99 or 77 and got a "safe" runout and is now trying to collect assuming you wouldn't have checked a flush. (Or at the very least, assuming you might have to call a raise with a one pair ace hand as played out.)

I think I can put enough inferior "value" in villains range to justify the call versus how few flush combos villain can have. However, to reraise seems like a game theory disaster since we are pretty sure villain can't have a straight or an inferior flush and may be able to fold anything worse. And we can't make anything better fold because it's pretty much the nuts unless he has exactly and would be capable of folding the second nuts to a reraise. So I think you call the raise, if you're shown a better flush, nice hand, next deal. If not, then villain probably had a holding that would have had a hard time calling a 3-bet river-reraise anyway.

 

[boltonguy]

First hand: I had a $25 stack. the pot was $17 after all the calls. Im not usually looking at playing A4s for this many bb's pre, but if I hit a trip 4, 2 pair or clubs, I will have hands that beat many other good hands. Sure, I could have folded here.

Second hand: Show of hands, how many actually play this tight as to fold this hand pre??? Going off a range calculator, this is barely out of top 10 percent.

I fold this hand pre to an UTG+1 raise at a full ring (9 or 10 handed table). We are way behind V's opening range. QTs is LJ RFI range (6 max UTG).
3bet or fold and I would only 3 bet with specific reads as we will be OOP. Would rather 3bet with a suited Ace as we block Ax then.
This hand doesnt block much so if V calls we are probably way behind in full ring.

 

[grebe]

Weird line from villain. I say he’s most likely value raise is a strangely played A-high flush. Or he has some kind random bluff. I’d just call

Screw all that. I jammed it.






Villain calls with

 

[boltonguy]

Call river bet. If he has AKdd or AJdd move on. You are way ahead of all other holdings including what he may see as value hands.

 

[Legend5555]

Screw all that. I jammed it.






Villain calls with

This is a terrible jam. Whilev the villain can raise some worse value here given how the hand played, he certainly isn't calling with worse. You are still deep enough that he isn't pot committed to call with any worse hands. That's a pot sized river jam.

Sorry, but no. Just no.

 

[Eriks]

Screw all that. I jammed it.

Villain calls with

Hoping to get called by what exactly?