Flopped set and 2 players to a hand?!?

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1/3 at the Beau Rivage around 11am. This game is uncapped and hero bought into the game for $1k. Straddle on the button for $6

SB $1.4k
BB $600
UTG $800
Hero is UTG+1 $1,200
MP $500
Button $300

SB completes, BB completes, UTG limps, Hero opts to limp with :4h::4c: , folds to MP who makes it $42, folds to button who calls, all other call, Hero call.

Flop $252 :9d::8d::4c:
SB leads for $100, folds to Hero who make it $325, folds back to SB who instajams. Now for the fun part!

SB has been pretty snug he's only played one hand since Hero has sat down. SB is upper 80s and drinking coffee. Besides that there is no additional read.

Hero stops for a second to think. As Hero is thinking the guy next to him starts hitting his knee under the table rapidly. He turns and whispers out of earshot of everyone 99. Hero pauses because he's just stunned about what's happened.

A few more seconds go by and the neighbor knees Hero a few more times again and again whispers 99. Again no one else hears this happen.

For reference the whisperer is like mid 80s and knew about 5 people at the table when he sat down at the table a few minutes ago. Hero and him had spoke briefly in between and he had shown him his cards twice to "sweat" him. Other than that they don't know each other.

What do you do if your hero with action pending?
 

Hornet

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Fascinating hand! Hero and villain are both super deep, with 400 BB effective. He is prototypical OMC, in a morning game drinking coffee. Do we really think he is shoving there with just an over pair? Top two is very unlikely I think given the pre flop raise.

I think without the additional information I fold. But the fact that the whisperer is telling you he has 99 makes me very suspicious. Why would a guy you don’t know do that? Maybe he and villain are running some sort of angle? I probably fold anyway, but the kneeing/whispering makes me want to call.
 

FDLmold

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I've thought about it a little more now. If it's an angle and they are partners and SB does not have 99, it is possible for you to have 99 and then the gig is up. So I'm confident that the whisperer is on the level.
 

DrStrange

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Let's start with the betting. Villain limps from the small blind and then calls the over bet from MP preflop. The flop is dealt and villain bets 40% pot, gets raised by Hero and insta-jams. All of this is consistent with a middle pocket pair becoming a set. It is strange line to take with a big pocket pair. Villain could hold a hand like JTs or A4s or 76s or something similar - there are six hands that make a bigger set and roughly six hands with the nut flush draw / combo draw.

Without the guy whispering in my ear, my alarm bells are going off. The old regulars playing morning poker on a weekday are often nut peddlers. The flop line of bet small to induce action then jam is strong. Very strong considering the villain. The meta game also needs to be considered. This board is potentially bad for an over-pair. < bad meaning lots of draws where an over-pair is flipping at best. > Villain isn't likely to be risking a thousand+ stack very often without some sort of solid edge.

I would already be considering folding bottom set. Not that I would, but I think it merits consideration.

Now let's add in the table talk. Maybe the old guys are rivals, or if nothing else your neighbor would rather stack you than let the villain get your chips. Maybe it is a complex team angle shoot. Maybe it is random chatter from a guy who doesn't know enough to say anything. All-in-all it is enough to tip the balance and let Hero find a fold.

Now - - there is another decision to make. Should Hero call the floor and spill the beans? If he does, an epic shit storm is possible. Or nothing will happen. The floor knows the house needs these regulars to keep games running on weekday mornings. I am conflicted about this decision - not at all sure it is Hero's best interest to raise the issue. But the table talk is irregular. . . . . . not clear to me what is best to do.

TLDR: fold and decide to notify the floor or not -=- DrStrange
 

JMC9389

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Fold.

He either has a nut flush draw or top set.
 

upNdown

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I’m folding for all the reasons in the first two paragraphs of @DrStrange ’s post.
My question is, why do people give a crap about this hand whisperer? My assumption is that he’s just trying to show you how smart he is. Probably a reg, probably has experience with villain. Possibly running a scam with villain, but unlikely. But again, who cares? Because, and correct me if I’m wrong, OP, but I’m pretty sure you’re making your own decision here.
 
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I think I am leaning to fold as @DrStrange stated. He is looking for the score early in the morning. Good Luck on the decisions. First is folding then the other is talking to the floor to see what can be done or not done.
 

waddadonk

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Any math behind a threshold for calling? If this was 100bb effective stacks it'd be a call. At what depth does it become a borderline decision?
 

Beaniman

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IDK, I'm not very technical but in my mind SB would have been getting a decent price to call with a lot of hands that connect with this board pre flop. Only 99/88 beat you. I really still feel like 1010+, strong draw or 89s is the most likely the best he will have the majority of the time.

Preflop, with Hero closing the action and getting the best price, I feel like Hero could easily have shown up with AXd, A4s, A10s, A9s, 67s, J10s, 1010+, 910s, KJd, QJd, KQd etc.. Most all of these would have to fold to a Jam even though you would comfortably raise/stab with a lot of them as you did.

If I was SB with a very tight image, I would have called preflop as well and would have made a similar play with 67s, A4d, 89, 10Js, 1010+, AQ-A10d, there is IMO too wide a range SB could have to make this Jam with and a set crushes most of it. If you think you're beat, save money by all means, but I think you would be folding too often with a set here.

Bottom line, both ranges are fairly wide & I would need a very compelling read to fold with 1/3 of my stack already committed.

Some of these really tight players are going to capitalize on their image on this kind of board too and try to steal. Knowing they will get credit for a big hand.

But I'm a scrub, I'd like to hear how it ended up. As well as criticism of my logic.
 
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ceramicmike

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still waiting
B2E30C21-BE76-47A8-9BF4-5DDE25BF4B56.jpeg
 

legend672

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By upper 80’s do you mean age ? How could someone that old whisper well enough for you to hear him , but no one else ?
 

Frogzilla

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In general I strive to ignore table talk completely. It’s a leveling game that I’ve never been very good at. Also, OMC nit-read may just not be that reliable.

That said, there are few times I’m folding sets on connected boards, but this might be one of those times. We need about 30% equity, and I doubt this villains range has enough overpairs, 89s, or single draw combos to give us that. Calling wouldn’t be a torch but I let this one go.
 

Frogzilla

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Also, what’s the bad beat jackpot situation? If it’s anything material, we can possibly discount Villain would be trying to take a potential bad beat hand on the flop with a set or straight flush draw. And if V does indeed your neighbor has nothing to gain and lots to lose if you don’t play this hand to the river so his comments are especially out of place. Plus your 1/4000 or so bad beat equity. Maybe we should call!
 

Payback

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Sorry, I was up playing 4 handed till 8 in the morning with a drunk and 2 whales. They beat me down.

Also, what’s the bad beat jackpot situation? If it’s anything material, we can possibly discount Villain would be trying to take a potential bad beat hand on the flop with a set or straight flush draw. And if V does indeed your neighbor has nothing to gain and lots to lose if you don’t play this hand to the river so his comments are especially out of place. Plus your 1/4000 or so bad beat equity. Maybe we should call!
The BBJ was at 3k so basically nothing.


Update:
Hero, me in this situation, eventually decides on a...

Call!


Flop $252 :9d::8d::4c:

Turn $2552 :ad:

Huh, guess he didn't have the nut flush draw...

River $2552 :9s:

Hmm..... Less likely he has quads.

Villian turns over :ah::ac:
:vomit:

I decided on a call because it's live poker and I have a set. Ultimately I didn't care what the guy next to me said, it just added another level of confusion to the hand of which there wasn't much. I have a set. If it's a cooler I'm paying off and I couldn't be 100% sure these two guys were working together.

Basically I figure there is always the 5% live poker spazz play that figures into every hand. Plus I didn't drive 6 hours to get to Biloxi to fold sets.
The guy sitting next to me immediately seeing the other guys hand says oh yeah he could definitely have that in that spot. Definitely 99, AA or KK. o_O Honestly I think he was just a clueless old man as well.

"What'd you have?" I told him I had JdTd. Can't fold a straight flush draw...

I figure at this point if I call the floor over and mention what happened its going to look like sour grapes and the table is going to think I'm tilted. My image was already meh, so I tried to keep what little I had left in tack. I buy in back in for 2k. Old guy literally plays 2 more hands and racks up to leave as he's met his quota for the day. Talker next to me immediately takes his 5 seat and gets away from me in the 9.

Then about 10 minutes later the repair shop calls the I had to bring my car that almost didn't make it to Biloxi calls and says the repair is going to be 1.5k to start and that might not fix everything. Fun start to my weekend away!
 
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Moxie Mike

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Haven't read the spoiler (yet).

SB has been pretty snug he's only played one hand since Hero has sat down. SB is upper 80s and drinking coffee. Besides that there is no additional read.

You didn't say how long you'd been at the table at this point, or if you have any history with this Villain. Without much of a read this is more of a generalization about the proverbial OMC player:

Older guys in my experience tend to play big pocket pairs and draws more passively than others. I've seen many of older gentlemen at the tables over the years who will literally only raise preflop with aces. The psychology behind it is that they want to make sure they get a favorable flop before commiting a lot of chips. He may very well have KK. Of course top and middle sets are possible.

Along those lines, calculating ranges and equities isn't really part of their game. I would expect them to play a big combo draw more passively.

So as I've read it you'd have to call off $833 to win $902. Not a great price but I'm not folding a set for what's just a little under one buy-in (but FWIW I don't buy in 300+ BBs deep either). If he's got a higher set you still have 2 outs. Again not great but I'm just not folding a set there (or pretty much ever).

Hero stops for a second to think. As Hero is thinking the guy next to him starts hitting his knee under the table rapidly. He turns and whispers out of earshot of everyone 99. Hero pauses because he's just stunned about what's happened.

A few more seconds go by and the neighbor knees Hero a few more times again and again whispers 99. Again no one else hears this happen.

For reference the whisperer is like mid 80s and knew about 5 people at the table when he sat down at the table a few minutes ago. Hero and him had spoke briefly in between and he had shown him his cards twice to "sweat" him. Other than that they don't know each other.

OK you didn't say if there was any history between you and the gentleman in question, or if this guy was on your right (between you and the SB) or on your left. If he was on your right I might wonder if he'd seen the SB's hole cards clearly. But in any event, I don't think this is collusion. He's probably just lonely, and looking to make a friend. This is supported by the fact that he's shown you his cards to 'sweat' despite having only been at the table for a few mins.

When the hand is over (regardless of the outcome), I would discreetly get the man's attention and say quietly to him, "Excuse me sir, but talking during the hand is a breach of etiquette. Please don't do that again."

After reading the spoiler:

Nice call. Not surprising to hear he turned over aces. Sorry to hear about your luck (both at the tables and with your car).
 

Legend5555

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Even before I saw the spoiler, I'm never folding. OMCs show up with KK and AA here a decent amount of the time. They like to see a safe flop, then get it in. It boggles my mind that they do this, but I've seen OMCs limp/call pre with AA and KK often enough that I always consider it a possibility with this sort of action.
 

Beaniman

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Sorry, I was up playing 4 handed till 8 in the morning with a drunk and 2 whales. They beat me down.


The BBJ was at 3k so basically nothing.


Update:
Hero, me in this situation, eventually decides on a...

Call!


Flop $252 :9d::8d::4c:

Turn $2552 :ad:

Huh, guess he didn't have the nut flush draw...

River $2552 :9s:

Hmm..... Less likely he has quads.

Villian turns over :ah::ac:
:vomit:

I decided on a call because it's live poker and I have a set. Ultimately I didn't care what the guy next to me said, it just added another level of confusion to the hand of which there wasn't much. I have a set. If it's a cooler I'm paying off and I couldn't be 100% sure these two guys were working together.

Basically I figure there is always the 5% live poker spazz play that figures into every hand. Plus I didn't drive 6 hours to get to Biloxi to fold sets.
The guy sitting next to me immediately seeing the other guys hand says oh yeah he could definitely have that in that spot. Definitely 99, AA or KK. o_O Honestly I think he was just a clueless old man as well.

"What'd you have?" I told him I had JdTd. Can't fold a straight flush draw...

I figure at this point if I call the floor over and mention what happened its going to look like sour grapes and the table is going to think I'm tilted. My image was already meh, so I tried to keep what little I had left in tack. I buy in back in for 2k. Old guy literally plays 2 more hands and racks up to leave as he's met his quota for the day. Talker next to me immediately takes his 5 seat and gets away from me in the 9.

Then about 10 minutes later the repair shop calls the I had to bring my car that almost didn't make it to Biloxi calls and says the repair is going to be 1.5k to start and that might not fix everything. Fun start to my weekend away!
Crapo on the car issues, motorcycle for the win. Tire change is way cheaper, like half, and mileage is awasome! But seriously ai think you made the right move & wonder what a solver would say.

Bad beat for sure, I couldn't ever fold there unless it was vs a reg I had a solid read on.
 

pilo

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Loudly tell the other guy to stop saying 99 and then call.

I feel like you can drive yourself crazy trying to play exploitatively, but at the end of the day you have a really solid hand, losing to set over set would be bad luck.

End of day, by my math, you need 30% equity to call. If he has a flush draw it gives you 64% so you're fine there, and I genuinely think the 9s are so unlikely it's pointless to try and play against them without a better read on the villain.

Man, I just read the spoiler. That is physically painful.
 
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