Flop decision 2/5/10 PLO (1 Viewer)

Anthony Martino

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UTG $1500 (solid LAG)
MP $1000 (rockier than a granite pit)


Hero is SB $1700 with

:tc::td::9h::8c:

Rock was CO for 10

Hero calls 10, villain UTG raises to 60, MP calls, hero calls

Flop :9s::7c::4h:

Hero checks with the intention of checkraising the UTG LAG

UTG bets $75
MP raises to $200
Hero ????
 
If you closed the action, there's more merit to calling. But UTG can inflict a lot of pain with another raise.

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What is Hero thinking? He has a simple OESD with a blocker. A rather weak semi-bluffing hand for me.

I am looking for a cheap draw. Failing to get that, I find a fold. Knowing the rockier than a rock pit guy is raising, Hero is in terrible shape. Something like top set vs OESD or perhaps a giant wrap where Hero's best hope is to win with pocket tens unimproved. Yuck

Hero has a solid read, let's use it -=- DrStrange
 
My guess is you're up against a flopped set or top two pair. A 10 won't help much either, as it gutters too many goofball straights. With the backdoor flush being a remote possibility, you're really only playing (praying?) to see a 6 or a Jack.

I fold.
 
When a super nit raises I’m folding here. We don’t close the action. We have one of our own outs. We could be getting free rolled by a full wrap.
Not sure about having our out...not following that.

As to the super nit...are PLO nits (there is such a thing) really sticky? In hold em I bluff nits more
 
A PLO "nit" is a nut peddler. He holds something like top set (the current nut) or a hand like JT86 with 16 outs to the nut. Knowing hero holds three of the wrap outs, I'd give more credit to top set.

A PLO "nit" isn't raising with an over-pair. In hold'em the over-pair is a good hand. In PLO the over-pair is a disaster waiting to happen with deep stacks. If we had a villain described as a hold'em player learning Omaha, then we might consider the over-pair as a possibility.

If Hero is calling rather than raising, we have to ask about his plan for the turn. There are only a few good cards, is Hero planning to check/fold? Is he calling a pot sized bet knowing his odds are not enough to justify the risk?

Potting does take away most of Hero's future decisions. The rock will be practically all-in and the pot big enough to justify a "pray for luck" river vs the skilled lag assuming he calls all that action.

You can't bluff the nit off his hand now. He knows his equity and is prepared to go to war. His worst case is a coin flip, best case is much better. Hold'em players need to put aside their "knowledge" as it will commonly get you in trouble. 10x trouble when the stacks are deep, though with a $10 third blind the stacks are only 100bb to 200bb deep.

Really, just fold and accept one time in eight it is a mistake -=- DrStrange
 
A PLO "nit" is a nut peddler. He holds something like top set (the current nut) or a hand like JT86 with 16 outs to the nut. Knowing hero holds three of the wrap outs, I'd give more credit to top set.

We block half of the top sets. If we really think this is only top set or a draw (and never over pairs or middle set) then I’m convinced we should pot
 
UTG $1500 (solid LAG)
MP $1000 (rockier than a granite pit)


Hero is SB $1700 with

:tc::td::9h::8c:

Rock was CO for 10

Hero calls 10, villain UTG raises to 60, MP calls, hero calls

Flop :9s::7c::4h:

Hero checks with the intention of checkraising the UTG LAG

UTG bets $75
MP raises to $200
Hero calls $200
UTG folds

Heros thought process here was that he blocks top set and the nut straight draw. It doesn't mean the rock can't have them, but Hero is generally given respect for having pretty nutty holdings himself, so he's hoping that might slow down the rock on the turn.

Hero believes the rock might also do this with a hand like two pair and a smaller straight draw against the LAG (i.e. 4567, 6789) figuring he is way ahead

Turn :5h:

Hero first to act and ???
 
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I think you mean UTG folded, not the rock MP that Hero called.

Many of the hands that you thought you might be ahead of on the flop have now hit the straight. But this is your chance to win the hand ... if you check and villain bets I think you have to give up. I’m tempted to lead out and try to buy it, but I just think there aren’t enough hands in the rock’s range that he folds after raising the flop. So I most likely check.
 
New to the party, I don't mind the call pre. I don't think I like calling a raise with just an 8 out straight draw on the flop though. I get holding two tens is fairly significant however, it makes it fairly difficult for either villian to have T86, and also how many sets can villian really have as well. How many 99 or 77 hands to nits really play?

Best case scenario feels like nit villian has an overpair and is trying to isolate loose villian , but a little less than 3:1 pot odds (assuming loose villian comes along) with just an 8 out draw and no other real prospects and bad position make this seem like a loose call. Especially because a rock may not even have this isolation play in his toolbox with just an overpair.

No help on the turn, but I think a nitty villian with an overpair is going to see this as a scare card too against a cold call. You could pot here if you think the rock will fold (but then you should also have to pot with your made straights here), or you could check and hope for a free card.L, evennat the risk of being blown off the hand, but if the rock is firing two shells here, you can probably fold with confidence.

So it really comes down to what "rocky" means. There's a big difference between an overfoldering nit or just not one that goes for value. Not knowing which is which I think I would fold here unless I really thought a bluff would get through.
 
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And while I get holding blocking cards is often important, it seems hero blocks wrap straight draw hands and set hands pretty equally here if we think that's the universe of villian's holdings. So I think both still merit pretty equal consideration unless there really are holdings in villian's range beyond these categories.
 
UTG $1500 (solid LAG)
MP $1000 (rockier than a granite pit)


Hero is SB $1700 with

:tc::td::9h::8c:

Rock was CO for 10

Hero calls 10, villain UTG raises to 60, MP calls, hero calls

Flop :9s::7c::4h:

Hero checks with the intention of checkraising the UTG LAG

UTG bets $75
MP raises to $200
Hero calls $200
UTG folds

Heros thought process here was that he blocks top set and the nut straight draw. It doesn't mean the rock can't have them, but Hero is generally given respect for having pretty nutty holdings himself, so he's hoping that might slow down the rock on the turn.

Hero believes the rock might also do this with a hand like two pair and a smaller straight draw against the LAG (i.e. 4567, 6789) figuring he is way ahead

Turn :5h:

Hero first to act and checks, Villain pots, hero folds

Villain later claimed he flopped 2 pair and turned the straight
 
Villain later claimed he flopped 2 pair and turned the straight

So I guess this confirmed this.
Hero believes the rock might also do this with a hand like two pair and a smaller straight draw against the LAG

9876 makes sense here. All your open enders would have been clean but it's only 7 out with a six missing. Good fold.
 

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