Family Pots.... (1 Viewer)

[longflop]

This probably speaks to the level of players at my tournaments, but more than a couple times per tournament, there will be a hand where every single person calls the big blind.

When this happens, if its early, the tables are still full and I am in late position, I will call with literally any two cards in front of me. Sometimes I won't even look at them. I know if the SB or BB raises, the majority of them will call. Once we get down to 5-6 players, if I am still in and it happens, I will throw away terrible hands. But I will admit, if I am late and it is called around to me. My playable range is huge.

My question for the group is, am I wrong for playing any two cards, pre flop, to a table full of callers?

 

[Jonesey07]

This probably speaks to the level of players at my tournaments, but more than a couple times per tournament, there will be a hand where every single person calls the big blind.

When this happens, if its early, the tables are still full and I am in late position, I will call with literally any two cards in front of me. Sometimes I won't even look at them. I know if the SB or BB raises, the majority of them will call. Once we get down to 5-6 players, if I am still in and it happens, I will throw away terrible hands. But I will admit, if I am late and it is called around to me. My playable range is huge.

My question for the group is, am I wrong for playing any two cards, pre flop, to a table full of callers?

Absolutely not. Especially in late position with no-raises and low blinds. You know to a raise you are folding but your pot odds should you spike the flop is outstanding.

 

[kmccormick100]

I’ll call with probably the middle 70% of my range, but I’m taking the top 20% and making it 8-9x as an open, waaaay too much dead money out there to pass on.

 

[Kain8]

You're making your own equity with a limp at that point. If I'm presented with 5 to 1 odds on a call or better seeing a bunch of limps to me, I'll limp along for sure.

Now if I wake up with a real hand, AJss+, TT+, AKo, or AQo, I'm bombing the ever living snot out of those limps with a BIG raise.

 

[Shaggy]

The difference between you and the other players is that you are capable of folding post flop when you flop middle pair. You are limping in pre to spike two pair or trips... and folding pretty much anything else.

I think the rough math dictates that you need 50:1 to call with atc (hoping to flop two pair or trips)... so can you turn your T50 call into T2500... maybe... you tell me.

 

[DrStrange]

Pot odds are seductively deceiving playing multi-way with a garbage hand. Playing a hand rated below average { i.e. below a 50th percentile hand } is an invitation to a difficult post flop and RIO risks. Hero needs to have a serious edge over the field to play unconnected, unsuited garbage cards. What exactly is hero hoping to flop holding T4o?

Hero also might ponder what sort of hands the first few players held to limp from early position. Are those villains truly horrible players? Do they commonly open limp with junk hands? Someone at the table holds a good or better hand in most family pots. It isn't easy for everyone to have a bottom 50 percentile hand at once ( and for them all to put chips in the pot with garbage cards ).

Flopping two pair or trips is hard - something like 70 to 1 - and even then Hero is no cinch to win a big pot. Hero is likely to win a small pot flopping trips with a weak kicker, but if the pot gets large hero is normally out kicked or worse. Even two pair hands offer a surprising amount of down side risk. And these types of hands are about the best Hero can hope for. Mostly it is weaker one pair hand and shabby, obvious draws.

I don't even get a little twinge of interest in a massively multi-way hand holding garbage cards. Throw them away. If you have to play junk, then turn it into a bluff. raise it up to 10x and try to steal the blinds / limps. This has its obvious risks, but aggression is still better than limping and hoping for a flop.

That is what everyone else is doing. Don't you do it too -=- DrStrange

 

[WedgeRock]

My question for the group is, am I wrong for playing any two cards, pre flop, to a table full of callers?

Why aren't you raising?!

 

[detroitdad]

Why aren't you raising?!

you beat me to it.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Pot odds are seductively deceiving playing multi-way with a garbage hand. Playing a hand rated below average { i.e. below a 50th percentile hand } is an invitation to a difficult post flop and RIO risks. Hero needs to have a serious edge over the field to play unconnected, unsuited garbage cards. What exactly is hero hoping to flop holding T4o?

Hero also might ponder what sort of hands the first few players held to limp from early position. Are those villains truly horrible players? Do they commonly open limp with junk hands? Someone at the table holds a good or better hand in most family pots. It isn't easy for everyone to have a bottom 50 percentile hand at once ( and for them all to put chips in the pot with garbage cards ).

Flopping two pair or trips is hard - something like 70 to 1 - and even then Hero is no cinch to win a big pot. Hero is likely to win a small pot flopping trips with a weak kicker, but if the pot gets large hero is normally out kicked or worse. Even two pair hands offer a surprising amount of down side risk. And these types of hands are about the best Hero can hope for. Mostly it is weaker one pair hand and shabby, obvious draws.

I don't even get a little twinge of interest in a massively multi-way hand holding garbage cards. Throw them away. If you have to play junk, then turn it into a bluff. raise it up to 10x and try to steal the blinds / limps. This has its obvious risks, but aggression is still better than limping and hoping for a flop.

That is what everyone else is doing. Don't you do it too -=- DrStrange

All on point.

Having multiple limpers should open up your range, but not open it up so much that you're playing utter garbage. There's a reason those hands are considered garbage, and it's not just because of their preflop percent equity numbers; it's because they play like garbage post-flop too. No pot odds are worth getting involved with a hand that will regularly put you in tough, expensive spots post-flop.

Save up several of those ill-advised limps and put them toward one big raise when everyone has limped to you in LP.

 

[JustinInMN]

My question for the group is, am I wrong for playing any two cards, pre flop, to a table full of callers?

I don't think you should open your range quite that wide. But I think it's find to limp maybe half of starting hands in these spots. Remember when you make this play you are trying to flop HUGE, and avoid expensive second place spots. So if you are limping 95s and catch the 9 hi flop you will need to be disciplined enough to dump it against moderate action.

And yes, punish the limpers with big sizing when you hold a premium hand as mentioned above 8-10x is actually reasonable here.

 

[fieldsy]

Along the lines of Dr Strange’s comment, the term “pot odds” gets misused. The fact that a pot is big doesn’t mean you get good odds. If literally every player gets in, you aren’t getting good pot odds, you are simply getting exactly the probability of your hand hitting. If you’re basically getting 8-1 on your call but your hand is such garbage that it’s a 15-1 or worse shot that you will have the best hand and get it to showdown, you’re losing chips with that call. The players who are getting good pot odds here are the SB and BB. Or if you raised to 4x and somehow 5 players folded, the cutoff might be getting good pot odds with that dead money in. Not great pot odds to be facing 8 live hands. Plus, if you flop your trips or two pair and get any action you are almost certainly going to be against a real hand, and even in position you won’t feel great about it. So you can’t rely too much on “implied odds” of getting paid off if you hit.

Also worth noting that this is usually even a worse play in tournaments due to stack size considerations. After a few levels it’s common for average tournament stack to be down to 20-30 BBs. Why piss away 4-5% of your stack on a speculative losing play? So that once every 25 hands you can get a double-up? When doubling your stack does not double your cash equity under ICM?

 

[longflop]

I love this discussion. What about if I were to restrict it to a minimum of any two suited or connected cards or better in this same situation? I realize that its probably still a little loose. It is important to note that I feel confident in my ability to outplay 80% of my players after the flop.

 

[Shaggy]

suited connectors fall into the 20x portion of the 10-20 rule... If you feel you can get 20x your call amount... then you are good. Mind you being out of position can make it more difficult to get paid off... also... what kind of flush or straight are you going to hit or be drawing to with 4c5c... I'd alter this loose strategy to mid suited connectors or one gappers... 7c9c >> 4c5c

 

[Highli99]

Sounds like you have a juicy game!