ELI5: What is the Niemann chess/cheating scandal all about? (2 Viewers)

justsomedude

justsomedude

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I don't follow chess, but from the smattering of headlines it seems like things are heating up with the Carlsen/Niemann cheating accusations, with Carlsen withdrawing from a recent re-match after 1 move.

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Can some one give me the Cliff's Notes/ELI5 (explain like I'm 5) version of WTF is going on?
Is this dude using electronic aides or something?
 
1) Magnus Carlson is the current world #1 and some consider to be the #1 player of all time

2) The best human players still do not make the “best” moves as calculated by advanced AI given our tiny brains and time constraints. During a live match the moves each player makes is evaluated by AI publicly.

3) If a player would be able to have the “best” move communicated to them somehow during a live game (via anal beads as Musk has suggested) they could beat the best human player in the world.

4) A game occurred where Magnus Carlsen lost to this guy and Magnus strongly suspects him of having such a means

5) Drama ensues
 
DirtyTIVA said:
1) Magnus Carlson is the current world #1 and some consider to be the #1 player of all time

2) The best human players still do not make the “best” moves as calculated by advanced AI given our tiny brains and time constraints. During a live match the moves each player makes is evaluated by AI publicly.

3) If a player would be able to have the “best” move communicated to them somehow during a live game (via anal beads as Musk has suggested) they could beat the best human player in the world.

4) A game occurred where Magnus Carlsen lost to this guy and Magnus strongly suspects him of having such a means

5) Drama ensues
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Thank you for the quick and dirty explanation!
 
6) Chess players are rated and the top players I guess have a sense of “how good” an opponent is. If their play seems suddenly unusually strong ie uncharacteristic of their rating and historical performance it would seem highly noticeable and suspicious.
 
DirtyTIVA said:
7) Also apparently Hans has a history of cheating behavior apparently? His explanation of his apparently brilliant play apparently had some inaccuracies and inconsistencies. I don’t play seriously anymore and I’m not following this that closely but that is the gist.
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Apparently Hans has admitted to previously having cheated in games on chess.com.
 
DirtyTIVA said:
7) Also apparently Hans has a history of cheating behavior apparently? His explanation of his apparently brilliant play apparently had some inaccuracies and inconsistencies. I don’t play seriously anymore and I’m not following this that closely but that is the gist.
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I heard he used to cheat on chess.com in order to quickly up his ELO to play stronger opponents. And such times were when he was around 11-12. Although I believe this is just his own account.

But I have heard the same that his interviews are odd and not always what you'd expect from that caliber of Player.

But strange that Magnus hasn't provided any comment on the matter in the meantime.
 
Don't ask me why I know or care enough to write all this, but....

DirtyTIVA said:
and Magnus strongly suspects him of having such a means
Click to expand...
I am not fully up on the latest, but as of yesterday, Carlson has made no specific statement. He simply shared the "if I speak, I'm in trouble" meme that implied it when he first withdrew. Many professionals/broadcasters are clamoring for him to say anything of substance. Some theories are that he cannot due to buying a portion of a chess website that has more information, but this is pure speculation.

DirtyTIVA said:
7) Also apparently Hans has a history of cheating behavior apparently? His explanation of his apparently brilliant play apparently had some inaccuracies and inconsistencies. I don’t play seriously anymore and I’m not following this that closely but that is the gist.
Click to expand...
Hans (personally) and the Chess website (on which they play) confirmed he has instances of online cheating from a couple years ago, but never in "official" matches. Hans claims this was a couple times when he was younger and stupid, with the rational he wanted to accelerate his assent to play better players. Chess.com says there are more documented instances (due to some of their comments in response to a Han's interview where he said it was only a couple times) and that Hans may not be fully truthful here. Your blurb on inconsistencies in the interview has been fiercely debated, but many pros say it's baseless.

All this said, there has been zero proof of Hans cheating in OTB (over-the-board) chess, which is where he beat Magnus in classical chess. Magnus withdrew from the tourney after their first game and after some Hans (clearly joking) shit-talk.

The vibrating anal beads is a funny conspiracy theory and has never been written seriously besides from columnists.
 
So are remote controlled vibrating anal beads a real thing, or just a fantasy like flying cars?
 
Rieguy said:
All this said, there has been zero proof of Hans cheating in OTB (over-the-board) chess, which is where he beat Magnus in classical chess. Magnus withdrew from the tourney after their first game and after some Hans (clearly joking) shit-talk.

The vibrating anal beads is a funny conspiracy theory and has never been written seriously besides from columnists.
Click to expand...

Not a big enough sample size to really prove anything, but it's interesting that he began losing once they instituted a time-delay on the broadcast.

He went from winning 2 out of his first 3 matches, to losing/drawing his next 6.

I don't know jack about chess tournaments, but that seems like a significant swing...

1663795597140.png
 
Rieguy said:
All this said, there has been zero proof of Hans cheating in OTB (over-the-board) chess, which is where he beat Magnus in classical chess.
Click to expand...

Who is feeding the info to his butt? Could this not be solved by a simple delayed feed?
 
justsomedude said:
Not a big enough sample size to really prove anything, but it's interesting that he began losing once they instituted a time-delay on the broadcast.

He went from winning 2 out of his first 3 matches, to losing/drawing his next 6.

I don't know jack about chess tournaments, but that would seem like a substantial swing...

View attachment 991043
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That is not too crazy based on the ratings of those in the tournament. Further, as us poker players know, mentality plays a huge part. Very few people, especially as young as Hans, are going to even perform decent playing against one of their idols with a huge scandal hanging over their head. Hans is not the most stable person to begin with. Last on that point is that (pure speculation) Magnus asked for these to be implemented before the tournament, it was denied, and then after the game he got pissed off and left, basically forcing the tournament's hand.

The most abnormal thing in the game is Magnus losing in classical chess with white pieces to a player at Hans' rating. This is extremely rare for him. However, he had a more remote/unconventional opening that Hans played relatively well against. Most professionals admit, however, that Magnus simply did not play well or up to his usual level. To be fair to him though, and along the lines of the aforementioned mental game going on, playing against a past admitted cheater who kind of knew how to counter your remote opening is a bit fishy and likely messed with his head. Magnus has talked about this being a potential issue in the past and can negatively affect games, regardless of whether or not it is actively happening.

It's all a shit-show. Until we hear something definitive from the Magnus or the likes of FIDE, it is just going to be speculation for a while.
 
Rieguy said:
It's all a shit-show. Until we hear something definitive from the Magnus or the likes of FIDE, it is just going to be speculation for a while.
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Speculation makes the media dig.


I just have to wonder what kind of signals were sent and how to interpret them. What’s the code for transmitting chess moves? There’s probably something from pre-Internet
 
ekricket said:
Speculation makes the media dig.


I just have to wonder what kind of signals were sent and how to interpret them. What’s the code for transmitting chess moves? There’s probably something from pre-Internet
Click to expand...

Obviously this is all speculation and I just play recreationally (so few people even know how to play anymore let alone beyond beginner level). Hans could very well be another chess prodigy.

Moves in chess can be as easy to communicate as one letter and one number. E4 for example. Or C5. Mike Postle would have needed more than that basic info. So hypothetically it could be quite easy to transmit the “best move” via any kind of microscopic vibrational means. Device in shoe, ear, butt, hair, armpit, under watch. I’m sure Vegas casino game cheats have tried a number of similar variations.
 
DirtyTIVA said:
Obviously this is all speculation and I just play recreationally (so few people even know how to play anymore let alone beyond beginner level). Hans could very well be another chess prodigy.

Moves in chess can be as easy to communicate as one letter and one number. E4 for example. Or C5. Mike Postle would have needed more than that basic info. So hypothetically it could be quite easy to transmit the “best move” via any kind of microscopic vibrational means. Device in shoe, ear, butt, hair, armpit, under watch. I’m sure Vegas casino game cheats have tried a number of similar variations.
Click to expand...
I mean is it like 5 vibrations for the “e” and then 4 more for the “4”? That’s nine vibrations. What if you meant D5? That’s nine too. And what piece are you talking about moving to E4? How do you identify it?

Seems like you have to be at least a vibration savant, which is a thing to celebrate of itself, much less play chess on top of it.
 
ekricket said:
I mean is it like 5 vibrations for the “e” and then 4 more for the “4”? That’s nine vibrations. What if you meant D5? That’s nine too. And what piece are you talking about moving to E4? How do you identify it?
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5...pause...4? 5 long vibrations...4 short vibrations?

i mean, if we are talking remote control ass vibrations, sorting out an agreeable code seems pretty trivial.
 
I mean who knows how much detail is communicated. By at high level play I imagine it doesn’t take much.

Full moves in chess are for example E2-E4 or B (bishop) C5. N (knight) F3.
 
(Not taking sides in this, just asking for reference)

Is it possible that such great play against such a remote opening is something than could have been studied so he knew what to do? I mean, we all watch poker pros on TV and live streams. We could sit down and figure out various pros tendencies and be much better prepared for that one pro. Did this kid know who he was facing for a while? Is it possible to prepare for chess in that manner?
 
tabletalker7 said:
(Not taking sides in this, just asking for reference)

Is it possible that such great play against such a remote opening is something than could have been studied so he knew what to do? I mean, we all watch poker pros on TV and live streams. We could sit down and figure out various pros tendencies and be much better prepared for that one pro. Did this kid know who he was facing for a while? Is it possible to prepare for chess in that manner?
Click to expand...

he didn't resign because of the opening, he resigned in protest because of the overall situation.
 
raynmanas said:
5...pause...4? 5 long vibrations...4 short vibrations?

i mean, if we are talking remote control ass vibrations, sorting out an agreeable code seems pretty trivial.
Click to expand...

DirtyTIVA said:
I mean who knows how much detail is communicated. By at high level play I imagine it doesn’t take much.

Full moves in chess are for example E2-E4 or B (bishop) C5. N (knight) F3.
Click to expand...
N is 14 vibrations? Don’t lose track!!

Just applying common sense to what seems like an elegant Internet solution. What kind of foolproof - I say foolproof because like this it better be - system could they use that would reliably be transmitted and decoded?
 
ekricket said:
N is 14 vibrations? Don’t lose track!!

Just applying common sense to what seems like an elegant Internet solution. What kind of foolproof - I say foolproof because like this it better be - system could they use that would reliably be transmitted and decoded?
Click to expand...
Morse code is really old and really easy to learn
 
Chess isn't poker. Losing/drawing the remaining matches after a strong start is whatever. Hans was one of the lower rated players in the field. Chess doesn't have the luck factor of poker. Add the side show circus, it's a pretty big mental distraction.

That said, could be be cheating? Sure, but if I really suspected it, I would try to find actual evidence. Not start a scandal just cause I didn't play well and had suspicions.
 

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