Dynamic board at a table full of nits....when to get paid?

grebe

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OK, playing 25NL full ring at Bovada...many hands are being folded to the blinds...I am not playing much and I am the action player at the table. Up a few bucks. No real reads, except for a few definite fish...villain #1 is not one of those I have ID'd

Hero is UTG ($34) with :5c::5d:: Raise .75
Villain 1 is cutoff ($23): 3bet! $2.60
Villain 2 is SB ($13): call $2.60
Hero Calls
Pot: $7.65

Reasoning: 55 is a fold for me UTG in a standard to aggressive game....but it's not a horrible mistake. I decided to loosen up given the table dynamics are BORING. Unfortunately, I get 3! for the first time. Without the SB coming along, I think it's a fold. I am thinking his range must be very strong here to 3! an UTG raise. JJ+, AQs+. It could be looser than this, but nobody (but me) has 3! yet. I call to set mine....really hoping he has KK or AA.

Flop: :4d::5s::6d: BING!

SB: Check
HERO: check
V1: Bet $5.74
SB: fold
HERO: ????

Villain leads into this pot big....3/4 pot. Even with AA, this is a huge mistake. It obviously misses any hand V1 has 3!, and he is betting into 2 players. However, he only has $15 behind. So, do I:

a) call and check turn...praying he doesn't check back
b) min raise flop and shove any turn
c) shove flop
 

boltonguy

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Crazy flop for V to be leading big unless he has 66 or 78s. Both are unlikely 3! from a nit IMHO.
Fast play with the FD on the flop. 3x = shove. If he has AdXd and gets there well you got it in good.
 

upNdown

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I think you flat, and then lead the turn for some amount he’d rather call than fold his kings, maybe 1/3 pot.
If you flat and check the turn, a lot of tight, non action players will be happy to check back their big pocket pair.
 

Legend5555

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Generally, I would just jam here given the jam week be less than pot size. He is repping a big hand by 3 betting and then betting this board. If he has an overpair, he is never folding. If he has a diamond draw, he is never folding. If he has AQ or AK, you only get more money if a big card comes. And if you slow play, there are a lot of scary turn cards that kill your action. Note, most of the straight cards shouldn't concern you at all given his 3 bet pre. It's hard to imagine too many bluffs you could have here, but I don't really think it matters against these players.
 

JustinInMN

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Reasoning: 55 is a fold for me UTG in a standard to aggressive game....but it's not a horrible mistake. I decided to loosen up given the table dynamics are BORING. Unfortunately, I get 3! for the first time. Without the SB coming along, I think it's a fold. I am thinking his range must be very strong here to 3! an UTG raise. JJ+, AQs+. It could be looser than this, but nobody (but me) has 3! yet. I call to set mine....really hoping he has KK or AA.
No problem with this. In a nit-fest game I am probably going to start opening fairly wide, even from EP. Maybe or maybe not in a 9-handed game, but in a 6-7 handed for sure.

I might even still defend this against the cutoff 3-betting even without the small blind. Dead money from the blinds still provides overlay and I might just see if I can catch an ace and take this away from villain unless he has AA, AK, or AQ if he is such a nit. With the small blind coming along I think the call is obvious.

Flop: :4d::5s::6d: BING!

SB: Check
HERO: check
V1: Bet $5.74
SB: fold
HERO: ????

Villain leads into this pot big....3/4 pot. Even with AA, this is a huge mistake. It obviously misses any hand V1 has 3!, and he is betting into 2 players. However, he only has $15 behind. So, do I:

a) call and check turn...praying he doesn't check back
b) min raise flop and shove any turn
c) shove flop

I think I am going to raise now. I am not as worried about villain drawing out, even on a wet board, but if the villain is a nit with a strong hand, there are a lot of turn cards may come off that will dry up your action. This sizing seems to be trying to get diamonds to fold, so I am guessing it is a big pair. Even a hand like QQ or JJ would want to size it up here.

If that's the case even a K or A will make it tough to get more value out of villain. I am going to raise now, I think it will usually be tougher to get stacks in later in the hand, if he has AA or KK he's probably going to go with it now, or never. If he has diamonds, he's going to go with it. (Not as great for hero, but still the right thing.)

The only advantage for flatting the flop bet would be giving the unpaired part of villain's range a chance to "catch up." That is the circumstance in which it would be easier to get it in later in the hand than now. Even at that, we don't know how many of villain's "pair draw" outs make a 3-flush so even catching up is no guarantee we are playing for stacks.

But I think given the preflop and flop action, you are usually going to be facing over pairs or big flush draws and both should be ready to play this pot for stacks. Start working toward that. If villain is holding a non-pair hand and folds, it was going to be difficult to get value from that later in the hand anyway. So many turns are going to shut down bluffs and so few cards are going to improve villain to think he can go for value.

The question on sizing really depends on how deep the stacks are. With villain only having $15 left and about $13-$14 or so in the pot already, I am probably just going to shove here. Villian will be looking at $35 ish pot he can call for $15, maybe he finds a hero fold with JJ or QQ at that size. But I think it just gets harder to get those hands to stay in on future streets anyway.
 
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JustinInMN

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Generally, I would just jam here given the jam week be less than pot size. He is repping a big hand by 3 betting and then betting this board. If he has an overpair, he is never folding. If he has a diamond draw, he is never folding. If he has AQ or AK, you only get more money if a big card comes. And if you slow play, there are a lot of scary turn cards that kill your action. Note, most of the straight cards shouldn't concern you at all given his 3 bet pre. It's hard to imagine too many bluffs you could have here, but I don't really think it matters against these players.
I basically copied this without realizing while using many more words :).
 

JustinInMN

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Villain leads into this pot big....3/4 pot. Even with AA, this is a huge mistake. It obviously misses any hand V1 has 3!, and he is betting into 2 players. However, he only has $15 behind. So, do I:
I wouldn't say this is a huge mistake, this villain can still collect value from unpaired hands in hero's or SB's range. Diamonds. Pairs 77-99. Also doesn't want to give any cards away for free, especially with big pairs less than AA, so a bet here is in part for protection too. This flop doesn't figure to hit anyone too hard given the action unless villain knows hero is opening as light as he is in reality. And even at that, if hero is opening as wide as 55 pre, hero is opening a lot of hands that miss this flop too.
 

Legend5555

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Also, note that the call of this 3 bet pre with 55 strictly to set mine, this is borderline given the stack size without the other caller in there. I think folding or calling are both okay. Calling might be slightly +EV.

As a good rule of thumb, the stack depth needs to be 10-15x the raise size to make set mining profitable. And that's assuming you always get the rest of the stack in. So in this case $1.85 is the raise size stack depth behind is $20.4. Now you have the extra call in there, which helps and makes this a pretty clear call IMO. But especially against people that know what they are doing, you need to tread cautiously when set mining. Unless you plan to pick up the pot sometimes when you miss, it's going to really cost you long term. And you sometimes will see good players adjusting raise sizes to deny proper set mining odds.
 

grebe

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Ok, so let's play this from V1's perspective...

I think nobody will argue that the 3! is wrong... Assuming he is not getting out of line with like TJs.... But a case could be made for that as well.

Let's assume my ranges from above...JJ+ AQs+, AKo.

Flop is checked to you, what do you do?
A) check it
B) bet small... Say $2
C) bet large...$6
D) ship it


I like bet small here. Any thinking player is going to know this flop missed the aggressor. If I bet small, I keep control of the betting and force my opponents into an action. Also, the small bet keeps calling ranges wide... Top pair hands can continue for a street, gut shots, naked Ad, over cards, etc. Hands that best us will continue as well, but those hands are diluted by all the others. Also, if we have AK or worse, we can get away from it cheaper. If we have AA against better, it doesn't really matter, they probably get our stack. So we worry about what we can beat, not what we can't.

With the big raise, we fold all that out except a couple smaller over pairs that didn't 4! Plus stuff we are losing to.
 

boltonguy

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Multi-way 3bet pot that misses my range and had a FD. Multiway I'd X or bet 1/4 - 1/3 pot for the reasons you described. His play looks like an overpair that wants to drive out drawing hands as he's scared of the board and wants to take it down now while he's (hopefully in his mind) ahead.
 

JustinInMN

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With the big raise, we fold all that out except a couple smaller over pairs that didn't 4!
And to be honest, in a 3-way 3-bet pot, this isn't a bad result for V1 The bigger a pot is the more incentive one would have to use protection techniques. There may be a case with AA specifically not to worry as much about protection from pair draws, but I would argue with TT up to even KK, V1's opponents' ranges likely have a decent hunk of Ax and it's worth trying to price out pair draws with the larger sizing.

Also V1 is betting into two players, if V1 bets small and hero just calls, then V2 is in a spot to call super wide.

The bigger the pot is, the more value there is betting for protection, not just betting for value.
 

Frogzilla

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Ok, so let's play this from V1's perspective...

I think nobody will argue that the 3! is wrong... Assuming he is not getting out of line with like TJs.... But a case could be made for that as well.

Let's assume my ranges from above...JJ+ AQs+, AKo.


When flop is bad for range I bet less often and for a larger size, so I’m probably only betting 1/3 freq and something like 60% pot

With that tight of a range you gave (44 combos) I’d pick JJ, half of my QQ (no diamond), AQdd, and AxKd
 

BukNaked36

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Hero should raise.
Too many scare cards for villain that kill action - diamonds, 3's, 7's. If villain has something like JJ's, then add overs.

I think villain is playing fine. If he has an over pair, he needs to make drawing hands pay. If he has AA, he's also trying to get 88-KK to pay.
 

grebe

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Conclusion:. Hero min-raised flop, V1 folded. My guess is he had AQ+ and not diamonds.

I don't hate my play. Pretty sure if we call here, turn goes check-check.... Unless he hit one of his cards that wasn't a diamond. If there were bigger cards out there, I probably let him keep them lead. With do many cards that can shut down the action, and the spr was so low, I figured now was the best chance to get stacks in.
 

JustinInMN

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Conclusion:. Hero min-raised flop, V1 folded. My guess is he had AQ+ and not diamonds.

I don't hate my play. Pretty sure if we call here, turn goes check-check.... Unless he hit one of his cards that wasn't a diamond. If there were bigger cards out there, I probably let him keep them lead. With do many cards that can shut down the action, and the spr was so low, I figured now was the best chance to get stacks in.

I guess we found the situation where sizing didn't matter. (Hello Out of context thread)

And in truth, I think the min raise vs the shove at this depth isn't very different. The remaining stacks will be so small, they will pretty much be forced in no matter what the turn brings. So to me, the min raise signals the same as the shove.

Check-raising the flop was probably the right line to maximize value. I can't imagine you fare any better donking the flop or by flatting the bet. Nice hand :).
 

grebe

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I guess we found the situation where sizing didn't matter. (Hello Out of context thread)

And in truth, I think the min raise vs the shove at this depth isn't very different. The remaining stacks will be so small, they will pretty much be forced in no matter what the turn brings. So to me, the min raise signals the same as the shove.

Check-raising the flop was probably the right line to maximize value. I can't imagine you fare any better donking the flop or by flatting the bet. Nice hand :).
Thanks for playing along!
 
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