Do you consider HUDs a form of cheating ?

wask

Sitting Out
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
37
Location
switzerland
Original thread title: Free poker HUD for mac

Original post:
Hi guys, I recently started playing weekly online MTTs with a group of about 30 people. I’d like to use a basic hud to simplify my life a little.

Anything to recommend for OSX ?


Edit: I'm editing this after Jimulacrum second post because it's getting interesting and I'd like to have more opinions about this subject from other members. Is this necessary to discuss ? well I guess not but let's be clear; I know how to use google and back in my days I've been a user of pokertracker and hold em manager. I do not need anyone to find what I was requesting. That being said I'm new here and it's my first time joining a poker related forum for about 15 years ....so I figured let's ask the community, they seem nice and they're very knowledgable about chips. They might come up with something I didn't think of!

Well that was a pretty bad call from myself considering I end up being called a cheater after my very first post in the strategy section.

But I don't want to react too defensively and get pissed about it, I'm too old now for being mad on the internet. But I'll try to build a case for myself nonetheless and let you guys be judges.
 
Last edited:

Jimulacrum

Flush
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
2,613
Location
Nah Hampshah
I have two questions:

1. Is this a group of 30-ish people that you know, or that someone had to vouch for you to get you in?
2. Do all your opponents know you'll be using a HUD and agree that it's okay?
 

wask

Sitting Out
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
37
Location
switzerland
Have you ever used a hud ? Because it seams you re borderline implying I’m trying to cheat.

i used to play tons of nl .5/1, 9 tables at a time with a hud and I can assure your that you get a better read on your opponents 2 tabling hudless and taking notes.

but to answer your question yes someone had to vouch me in but I know like 1 out of 5 players irl, and most of them are recreational players with no background theory with the exception of 2 or maybe 3 of them for what I’ve seen. But except for these 3 I m pretty sure none of them have a clue of what a hud or a tracker is.
 

Jimulacrum

Flush
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
2,613
Location
Nah Hampshah
Have you ever used a hud ? Because it seams you re borderline implying I’m trying to cheat.

Yes, I have used a HUD, many years ago.

I'm not borderline implying you're trying to cheat. I just hadn't said it yet. But I'm going to say it now.

You're trying to cheat, plain and simple. You've been invited to a private poker club with a group of friends and acquaintances, and you're seeking out a tool to gain an unfair advantage over them.

i used to play tons of nl .5/1, 9 tables at a time with a hud and I can assure your that you get a better read on your opponents 2 tabling hudless and taking notes.

Are you trying to suggest you're looking for a HUD because you want to take it easier on your opponents? Or that a HUD doesn't offer you any special advantage that you wouldn't be able to glean on your own?

Comes off like you're just making excuses for why it should be okay to use a HUD. You can beat the game anyway, so why not let a computer do some of the legwork for you, right? Kinda like how Mike McD in Rounders makes excuses for Worm's cheating. He'd win anyway, so what's the harm in making it a little easier?

Except your 30-ish opponents signed up to compete with human beings playing by their own wits, not opponents whose memories and data-analysis abilities are being augmented by computer software.

but to answer your question yes someone had to vouch me in but I know like 1 out of 5 players irl, and most of them are recreational players with no background theory with the exception of 2 or maybe 3 of them for what I’ve seen. But except for these 3 I m pretty sure none of them have a clue of what a hud or a tracker is.

If you're willing to tell everyone in the club that you're using a HUD (and what that actually means), and you make that HUD available to them, and they all agree it's okay, then it would be less unfair. I still think it's terrible for poker, but if everyone agrees to it and it's available to all, then it's an accepted part of that club.

But it doesn't sound like that's your plan at all. It sounds like you're planning to take a bag of hand grenades to the fish pond so you can slaughter the fish with minimal effort.

I'd instantly kick a new guy out of my club over HUD use, and I'd stop accepting referrals from the guy who vouched for him. Even a long-standing and otherwise trusted player would get one stern warning and then ejection. It's that serious. If you care at all for the integrity of this game or for poker in general, you should reconsider what you're planning here.
 
Last edited:

wask

Sitting Out
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
37
Location
switzerland
Let's take a minute to recap a little what a HUD is and tell me if you agree or not.

A HUD is most of the time a tool provided by a poker tracker. A tracker is a software used to monitor your own results and provide data you can use to improve your game. By digesting your hand histories the software will also track your opponents results when they were sitting at your table, but unless you're playing heads up, the hands sample for deep analysis on them is just too small to be usable.

Now the HUD in itself will provide live information at the poker table in the form of stats displayed next to your oppenents. Theorically you can display any stats you wish, and I've seen some ridiculous HUD with multiple stats displayed for every action on every street. Why ridiculous you may ask ? Well simply because the sample of hand will almost always be waaay to small for these information the be relevant. So usually the stats being displayed will be simply: VP$IP (volontary put $ in pot) / PFR (preflop raise) and maybe a couple of other basic preflop stats.

Now why bother displaying just these stats when you can just look at what the players are doing ? Because it will allow you to multitable more effectively, as the hud will provide basic information about the players you're against. Is it as effective as playing one table and paying attention at every hand played ? Hell no! Numbers don't say it all. The thing is when multitabling you will simply rarely pay attention to hands you're not part of and will miss most of your opponents showdowns, wich is arguably the most valuable information you can get a table. Exemple: on a 6 handed CG table you're looking at A4ss, UTG opens and it folds to you. You're in a good spot to 3bet bluff with this holding BUT you see on your HUD he plays 15/12 and decide not to 3bet. Problem is you're multitabling and you've not been paying attention at a earlier hand where he went to showdown UTG with a loose open. You think he's a 15/12 player because that's what the hud says, truth is way looser but went through a run of bad cards during the 300 hands sample you got on him.


Are you trying to suggest you're looking for a HUD because you want to take it easier on your opponents? Or that a HUD doesn't offer you any special advantage that you wouldn't be able to glean on your own?

Comes off like you're just making excuses for why it should be okay to use a HUD. You can beat the game anyway, so why not let a computer do some of the legwork for you, right? Kinda like how Mike McD in Rounders makes excuses for Worm's cheating. He'd win anyway, so what's the harm in making it a little easier?

I'll give you that I came off like by saying "making my life easier." The thing is I don't believe it will at all. Because I tried my best to define a HUD but what is it really ?

A HUD is a relic of exploitative game theories wich have been wich have been rendered obsolete by GTO poker.

It sounds like you're planning to take a bag of hand grenades to the fish pond so you can slaughter the fish with minimal effort.

Please tell me, or anyone reading this tell me how, by what witchcraft you can turn informations provided by a HUD into such a massive advantage. I mean that's quite the analogy here. Because I don't know the answer. If you're willing to ban me from your hypotetical club you should be able to answer this question.

Talking about GTO. There is no doubt it is superior to exploitative theories. Because the computer is right and there is no debate there. I remember a post Phil Galfond made years ago where, if I remember correctly, he asked a bunch of top level pro what to do with KJo on the CO to a MP open. Most of them had a diffrent answer. Now it settled I guess, just ask the computer. Similar thing happened to chess; before computers you could fill a room with Grandmsters arguing about wich is the better defense against e5 opening : Kings Indian or Sicilian ? well now the computer clearly says Kings indian is losing. No one can argue about this.

What troubles me here is that I noticed in this thread: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pocket-10s-utg-am-i-a-nitty-nit.75277/
you're are using a solver to analyse the opening.

Let's go hypotetical here: a player from your private room tells you he prepared his opening ranges using a solver. Would you consider that cheating ? obviously not. How about he printed the ranges he came up with on spread sheets he's using during the tournaments. Cheating ? I assume a theory book openend on his desk would be ok so I don't think so no. Yet I believe all of this is closer to: "why not let a computer do some of the legwork for you, right?"

So now tell me what kind of crazy advantage displaying VPIP PFR can I gain over my opponents compared to my hypotetical exemple ? Because if a hud is "grenades in the fish pond" a printed opening range prepared on a solver is stuffing the tuna with a nuke for me.

Why use a HUD then ? I'll admit my original reason sounded shady. I just like it, I think it's fun because I used it all the time back then. Because I thought I was a genius for over 3betting a villain with a high fold to t3bet stat not thinking a second it made my range completely unbalanced. But really it's just fun looking at stats. That's it. Now you may believe I full of s*** and that I really just finding excuse for cheating, but that would be beside the point.

I certainly don't want to have bad blood with anyone around here and I hope I did not come across as agressif or shady here. Post is a tad TLDR but it sucks being called a cheater (a first)! I've been cheated on online once and I wish that on nobody.

EDIT: Another question I would like to ask you. You're asking me if I'm willing to tell everyone I'm using a hud when the vast majority of them have no clue what it is. It certainly not fair and you know it. Even if we agree that it is not cheating there certainly will be blowback. Justified ? well think about it: would you tell the members of your recrationnal club that you're using a solver to generate the most effective PF handrange against a loose crowd ? you know some of them will immediatly assimilate this as cheating. That beeing said I'll try to talk about it during the next live event.
 
Last edited:

JackDeRke

Pair
Joined
Feb 9, 2020
Messages
237
Reaction score
180
Location
Ostfriesland, Niedersachsen, Germany
I don´t really have a strong opinion on the matter. My thought is, in a private online game were a HUD can be used by anyone it is fair game as you only collect data you can find on your own anyways. I know there are even apps out there for private clubs which have it build in. There are also sites were it is not possible/permitted, so if you want to get around it that is how to do it.
I think it is not strictly cheating. Thing is, that for most private games and especially for small private MTTs it is usually a friendly atmosphere and why should you start getting this competetive in them. I treat them like live games were it´s just standard to estimate it yourself.
That said If you don´t know the people, how´d you know if they use one or not.
Bottom line, if anyone playing can use it for free then it´s fair game as anyone can choose if they want to or not. If people want to play without it when it´s free they have to either make sure it´s the rule for everyone and everyone plays by these rules or go and look for somewhere were it isn´t possible or free to use it.
Some App devs make their revenue through offering "VIP" status which allows players to see more stats on their opponents. I personally don´t like the concept behind these, but at least you can immediately tell by the looks of their icon, that they have this information and can use it against you, so at least you let your opponents know you might be using it.
For competitive playing go on a site were you can play that and when playing with your friends or in private just let the host declare the rules. Ask them if it´s fair game and go by their judgement. If someone breaks these rules throw them out, that´s how easy it should be.
 

Anthony Martino

Straight Flush
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
9,606
Reaction score
16,369
Location
Tampa, FL
I haven't used PokerTracker and a HUD in a long time, although I did way back in the day when I was multi-tabling fixed-limit Omaha hi/lo cash games.

As far as calling a HUD "cheating", that's quite the stretch for me. All the HUD does is take data from hands you've played and tracked and provide statistical information on your opponents (how loose or tight they're playing, etc)

It doesn't give you any information I would consider "cheating" (i.e. reveal hole cards, who will win the hand, etc)

As the player, you still have to take the data you have on your opponents and make all the decisions on how to play against them.

"cheating"

cheating.gif
 

Eriks

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
3,247
Reaction score
5,930
Location
Sweden
Let's take a minute to recap a little what a HUD is and tell me if you agree or not.

A HUD is most of the time a tool provided by a poker tracker. A tracker is a software used to monitor your own results and provide data you can use to improve your game. By digesting your hand histories the software will also track your opponents results when they were sitting at your table, but unless you're playing heads up, the hands sample for deep analysis on them is just too small to be usable.

Now the HUD in itself will provide live information at the poker table in the form of stats displayed next to your oppenents. Theorically you can display any stats you wish, and I've seen some ridiculous HUD with multiple stats displayed for every action on every street. Why ridiculous you may ask ? Well simply because the sample of hand will almost always be waaay to small for these information the be relevant. So usually the stats being displayed will be simply: VP$IP (volontary put $ in pot) / PFR (preflop raise) and maybe a couple of other basic preflop stats.

Now why bother displaying just these stats when you can just look at what the players are doing ? Because it will allow you to multitable more effectively, as the hud will provide basic information about the players you're against. Is it as effective as playing one table and paying attention at every hand played ? Hell no! Numbers don't say it all. The thing is when multitabling you will simply rarely pay attention to hands you're not part of and will miss most of your opponents showdowns, wich is arguably the most valuable information you can get a table. Exemple: on a 6 handed CG table you're looking at A4ss, UTG opens and it folds to you. You're in a good spot to 3bet bluff with this holding BUT you see on your HUD he plays 15/12 and decide not to 3bet. Problem is you're multitabling and you've not been paying attention at a earlier hand where he went to showdown UTG with a loose open. You think he's a 15/12 player because that's what the hud says, truth is way looser but went through a run of bad cards during the 300 hands sample you got on him.




I'll give you that I came off like by saying "making my life easier." The thing is I don't believe it will at all. Because I tried my best to define a HUD but what is it really ?

A HUD is a relic of exploitative game theories wich have been wich have been rendered obsolete by GTO poker.



Please tell me, or anyone reading this tell me how, by what witchcraft you can turn informations provided by a HUD into such a massive advantage. I mean that's quite the analogy here. Because I don't know the answer. If you're willing to ban me from your hypotetical club you should be able to answer this question.

Talking about GTO. There is no doubt it is superior to exploitative theories. Because the computer is right and there is no debate there. I remember a post Phil Galfond made years ago where, if I remember correctly, he asked a bunch of top level pro what to do with KJo on the CO to a MP open. Most of them had a diffrent answer. Now it settled I guess, just ask the computer. Similar thing happened to chess; before computers you could fill a room with Grandmsters arguing about wich is the better defense against e5 opening : Kings Indian or Sicilian ? well now the computer clearly says Kings indian is losing. No one can argue about this.

What troubles me here is that I noticed in this thread: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pocket-10s-utg-am-i-a-nitty-nit.75277/
you're are using a solver to analyse the opening.

Let's go hypotetical here: a player from your private room tells you he prepared his opening ranges using a solver. Would you consider that cheating ? obviously not. How about he printed the ranges he came up with on spread sheets he's using during the tournaments. Cheating ? I assume a theory book openend on his desk would be ok so I don't think so no. Yet I believe all of this is closer to: "why not let a computer do some of the legwork for you, right?"

So now tell me what kind of crazy advantage displaying VPIP PFR can I gain over my opponents compared to my hypotetical exemple ? Because if a hud is "grenades in the fish pond" a printed opening range prepared on a solver is stuffing the tuna with a nuke for me.

Why use a HUD then ? I'll admit my original reason sounded shady. I just like it, I think it's fun because I used it all the time back then. Because I thought I was a genius for over 3betting a villain with a high fold to t3bet stat not thinking a second it made my range completely unbalanced. But really it's just fun looking at stats. That's it. Now you may believe I full of s*** and that I really just finding excuse for cheating, but that would be beside the point.

I certainly don't want to have bad blood with anyone around here and I hope I did not come across as agressif or shady here. Post is a tad TLDR but it sucks being called a cheater (a first)! I've been cheated on online once and I wish that on nobody.

EDIT: Another question I would like to ask you. You're asking me if I'm willing to tell everyone I'm using a hud when the vast majority of them have no clue what it is. It certainly not fair and you know it. Even if we agree that it is not cheating there certainly will be blowback. Justified ? well think about it: would you tell the members of your recrationnal club that you're using a solver to generate the most effective PF handrange against a loose crowd ? you know some of them will immediatly assimilate this as cheating. That beeing said I'll try to talk about it during the next live event.
I wouldn’t call it cheating but I’d bet some of your opponents would consider it an unfair advantage if you’d explain its use like in your post. Imo, use the HUD multitabling on a commencial site but don’t in a private casual game.

If I found out someone was using a HUD in our private game they wouldn’t be invited back.
 

Sambukan

Straight
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2019
Messages
791
Reaction score
1,388
Location
6010
HUD is perfectely fine to use imo. As long it is allowed on the site and dont give you recommendations for certain actions.
When you could still play on pstars, i used holdemindicator, best feature was the replay function, i could rewatch my whole game and discuss it with a friend hand by hand. Vpip display on your opponents is pretty nice to have too.
 

Sambukan

Straight
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2019
Messages
791
Reaction score
1,388
Location
6010
I wouldn’t call it cheating but I’d bet some of your opponents would consider it an unfair advantage if you’d explain its use like in your post. Imo, use the HUD multitabling on a commencial site but don’t in a private casual game.

If I found out someone was using a HUD in our private game they wouldn’t be invited back.
Btw i didnt use the hud playing you guys, it dioesnt work with pokernow. But i must say if it did work i probably would have used it, and i would not have had the feeling that it was unfriendly. It wouldnt even have crossed my mind to tell you
 

wask

Sitting Out
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
37
Location
switzerland
Hence my question : if you ban someone for using a hud why wouldn’t you ban another person for using a solver to prepare an opening hand range against a soft field. The later most certainly offers a greater edge over the former.

banning someone for using a hud is nuts.
 

upNdown

Royal Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
12,355
Reaction score
15,631
Location
boston
I assume everybody playing online is using a HUD. (For whatever it’s worth, I do not use one.).

if you’re using a HUD on a site that does not allow HUDs, you’re definitely cheating.

Don’t confuse the issue by suggesting that effective GTO play is more effective than using a HIUD - that is not necessarily true, and regardless, it’s neither here nor there.

Since you’ve deleted your original post, I don’t have enough information to consider whether using a HUD would be cheating in THIS situation. However, I’m not new here, so I can tell you that absent that information I’d 100% defer to @Jimulacrum and assume that you’re trying to cheat - he knows poker.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nex

jrs146

3 of a Kind
Joined
Apr 22, 2018
Messages
570
Reaction score
629
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
I wouldn’t go as far to say a HUD is cheating. However if it was a game with a specific group of people that I was invited to I would be sure to ask the host if it’s permissible. Bigger picture this is why I’m not a fan of online poker. Just too many things I don’t trust.
 

wask

Sitting Out
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
37
Location
switzerland
Original post is in the edited first post. Wasn’t deleted. I’m not talking about using effective GTO, just preparing an opening hand range using a solver.
 

khp

Two Pair
Joined
May 18, 2021
Messages
402
Reaction score
288
Location
Have US and Singapore shipping addresses
Hence my question : if you ban someone for using a hud why wouldn’t you ban another person for using a solver to prepare an opening hand range against a soft field. The later most certainly offers a greater edge over the former.

banning someone for using a hud is nuts.
I’m not agreeing with either side of this debate, but asking a question then not liking the answer and calling it nuts isn’t very productive.
 

wask

Sitting Out
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
37
Location
switzerland
Ok i retract my statement then. I don’t want to sound douchy but after all I am the one accused of cheated here. Not a great way to start the day I’ll tell you.

But since you disagree with both sides I’d like to know your opinion.
 

Eriks

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
3,247
Reaction score
5,930
Location
Sweden
I would compare using a solver to find out proper opening ranges off game vs using a live HUD while playing to using a black jack chart vs counting cards. Maybe that makes me an idiot, I don’t know
 

Eriks

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
3,247
Reaction score
5,930
Location
Sweden
Btw i didnt use the hud playing you guys, it dioesnt work with pokernow. But i must say if it did work i probably would have used it, and i would not have had the feeling that it was unfriendly. It wouldnt even have crossed my mind to tell you
I always used a HUD back when I was playing a lot online and I would consider it a clear advantage against players who don’t use it.
 

wask

Sitting Out
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
37
Location
switzerland
Why insist on using a hud if it doesn't work to your advantage?

I am not, in fact I will most certainly NOT use one. I would be very saddened if me using a hud would provoke half the reactions of some that I m getting here. I don’t want to anger anyone or for anyone to feel uncomfortable playing against me.

what I m trying to defend here is that huds are not cheating and in fact vastly inferior to mordern and even offline poker tools.
 

StewbieDoo

Pair
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Messages
166
Reaction score
325
Location
Perry Hall, MD
Using a HUD is not exclusive to one player and as long as the site in question does not ban HUDs then it is not cheating. All other players have the access to use a HUD as well to gather the same type of information as you.
 

StewbieDoo

Pair
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Messages
166
Reaction score
325
Location
Perry Hall, MD
Any help to a player that other players don't have is cheating.
"One player at a hand" is the rule.

Every player has the access to this information if HUDs are allowed by the site. Because players choose not to use a HUD does not mean the player is cheating. If certain golfers decide to use a golf tee on the tee box but a majority of players do not choose to use a golf tee, are the minority in this situation also cheating?
 

grebe

Flush
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Messages
1,134
Reaction score
1,624
Location
Richmond, VA
I would not consider a HUD cheating. It is a tool that many online players use, and it pretty much ruined online poker, to be honest. It has a stigma.

If I were in an online home game of 30 or so players, I don't think I would use one. I DO see why they would think you are cheating. Why would they want or need you to play in their game and use software nobody else is using to give you an advantage over the field?

TLDR: they are wrong for saying you are cheating. They are 100 percent correct to kick you out of the game.
 

grebe

Flush
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Messages
1,134
Reaction score
1,624
Location
Richmond, VA
Hence my question : if you ban someone for using a hud why wouldn’t you ban another person for using a solver to prepare an opening hand range against a soft field. The later most certainly offers a greater edge over the former.

banning someone for using a hud is nuts.
Disagree. Using a solver is off table. Using a HUD is in game. They are most definitely not the same.

Also, disagree with banning someone for using a HUD is nuts. I totally get it...friends want to get together and play poker, find out someone is using a tracker, it's no longer friendly. Ban guy using tracker, problem solved, back to friends playing poker.
 

wask

Sitting Out
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Messages
41
Reaction score
37
Location
switzerland
What if you print the ranges you came up with and use them during the tournament ? And even if you memorize them my question is still unanswered. What significant edge does the hud give me ?
 
Top Bottom