Tourney Do you "chop" live poker tournaments? (1 Viewer)

Do you "chop" live poker tournaments?

  • YES

    Votes: 40 93.0%
  • NO

    Votes: 3 7.0%

  • Total voters
    43

moojersey

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I've been doing a bit of reading lately - poker related of course. I came across a subject that doesn't get a whole lot of attention from what I can tell. The inevitable deal making that usually ensues after navigating a large field of runners.

What does PCF think about chopping poker tournaments? Do you think deal making is + / - EV long term? I've read articles lately that seem to have opinions on both sides. What does the forum think?

Old articles I came across:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/5674-the-art-of-the-chop-poker-negotiations

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/let-s-make-a-deal-chip-count-and-icm-deals-20868.htm
 
Depends on many different things for me.

A few things I consider:
  • Chip stacks
  • Player quality
  • Blind levels
  • Difference in payment levels
  • Time
If I have a huge advantage in chips I most likely won't chop and play to win.

If three players are left and blinds are high relative to the chip stacks, I consider this a good spot to chop.

I was offered an even chop @justsomedude place when it was 3 handed. I had about 10 big blinds in front of me while the others had around 15-20. We were all in shove mode so the chip leader asked for an even chop. I said yes right away.

I think 1st paid $400
2nd roughly $240
3rd roughly $160

We all chopped and received $275 each. No brainer for me as I get a little more then the 2nd place prize money guaranteed. Get to go home at 1:30am. (y) :thumbsup:
 
I'm a recreational player, so I don't overthink this stuff. I barely think it at all. I don't want to refuse a chop if it's anywhere in the ballpark of fair, because I feel like Karma's coming after the guy who refuses the chop. On the other hand, I'm always happy to play it out - hell, I'm cashing anyway, and I love a chance to win the whole damn thing.
But like I said, I'm a recreational player. The long term +- EV stuff isn't looming large on my radar.
 
I play in a biweekly tourney with $10 buy ins. Chopped 90% of the time unless one has an enormous chip lead.
 
Most casino's payout structure is very top heavy. They do this on purpose to draw people in of course. Flash the big top prize money to be won. But most casino structures are very bad, especially at the end, it becomes a shove fest. So it makes sense to make deal.

Home games in our area are well structured and the payouts are balanced correctly that there aren't many chops. The exception being $100+ 2 day events, those usually end in some type of chop.
 
Personally, I will nearly always consider a fair equity chop based on stack sizes, unless league points are at stake or something similar.


"Do you chop live poker tournaments?"

Please let me answer this for @bergs:

"F U"
 
Chopped a 63 man tourney 8 ways last night. It was a Knights of Columbus tourney with a very very fast structure. Average stack at the time if the chop was 6 big blinds and the blinds were going to double in a few minutes anyways.
 
If a trophy/title is at stake I will not chop without an agreement that gives me first place ;)
 
90% of the tournaments I play are at my house, hosted by me. My rule is that I will go along with whatever the other players decide.

Away from home, I would always chop with Ronoh, because I know otherwise he will hit me with a massive suck-out. Not that I'm bitter or anything.

I would push a chop if Bergs is involved, just to tilt him.

In a casino, I would chop if I think it is to my advantage, which would be a non-scientific judgement involving chip size, relative $$ involved, and the quality of the remaining players.

L
 
Away from home, I would always chop with Ronoh, because I know otherwise he will hit me with a massive suck-out. Not that I'm bitter or anything.
What's a pirate gonna do? Hey, at least it all happened on the flop... would have been just wrong to blank the flop and hit two runners :D
 
I want to try this. Heads up on a Thursday night when I'm hosting is meh if Ive busted out (I'm always stuck dealing).

So what if I chop 1st and 2nd place upfront and everyone knows this going in. Seems fair.

But I wonder how this will affect gameplay? Will the big stack just sit out/fold until #2 and #3 have battled it out? Would this just create poor gameplay and less incentive for players to go for the big one?
 
Remember that chops in casinos have to be approved by the floor. The reason is simple, the TD has to be willing to print pay stubs for the cashier and some aren't. May seem trivial in smaller tournaments, but anything big that involves taxes is an issue. Sometimes a TD will not restructure payouts meaning that a chop is difficult because someone has to "claim" first place money and the associated taxes that go with it.

Just imagine the final table at the wsop getting chopped before the telecast and watching the players play for the bracelet, knowing that the winner would actually be losing when he ended up with a nearly $3million tax bill! Now I'm sure if the November nine had a deal that the Rio would print new receipts, but it highlights the tax problem to pretend that they wouldn't.
 
If I play in a casino, I usually dont have an issue with chopping as long as it is somewhat fair, and we can move on to the next tourney or cash game. For my personal "league" tourney, no chop as we are also playing for points for the end of the year Championship and point $$.
 
I usually don't chop in a casino, because I have an overly inflated view of my poker abilities. Now if the blinds are super high to the average stack, and someone offers me a sweet deal, I'll listen.
In a friendly home game, I won't offer a chop, but I'll usually accept one, because a) it's friendly, and b) let's play some cash.
 
I've only offered a chop in a casino once, and it was because the final 3 where me, Mrs Zombie, and one other. We were all equally stacked - T19,000 for myself, T 20,000 for both Mrs Zombie and the outsider. Blinds were going up to 2000/4000 after the break, so on break I offered a 1/3 1/3 1/3 chop.

I've never been the single holdout when a chop is offered either, but I will negotiate in my best interest.

I play home games for the fun and the fellowship. Chopping to end it earlier, does not make sence.
 
I've only offered a chop in a casino once, and it was because the final 3 where me, Mrs Zombie, and one other. We were all equally stacked - T19,000 for myself, T 20,000 for both Mrs Zombie and the outsider. Blinds were going up to 2000/4000 after the break, so on break I offered a 1/3 1/3 1/3 chop.

I've never been the single holdout when a chop is offered either, but I will negotiate in my best interest.

I play home games for the fun and the fellowship. Chopping to end it earlier, does not make sence.

Three runners?
 
So what if I chop 1st and 2nd place upfront and everyone knows this going in. Seems fair.

But I wonder how this will affect gameplay?

Am wondering if two skilled players wouldn't be tempted to collude... it's kinda sorta a public endorsement of team play, with a risk.
 
I'll chop. Often times will suggest it. I'm with Ronoh about the title/trophy issues. I don't have any ill will towards those that want to play on.
 
I'm known to rarely offer to chop, but will accept what I consider a reasonable chop. A lot of factors go in that evaluation (Kyle has a good list). I generally like BG's idea of a chop based something on chip stacks. Once I was chip leader and a chop was offered that would have left the last one with less than the payout they'd receive for playing it out and losing. I didn't think that was fair, so I insisted on an equal chop. It seems crazy and I wouldn't normally have done it, but they wouldn't consider paying her the last place amount without it. She wouldn't have disagreed with the chop out of courtesy to the host and others.

One way that will usually work is that the smallest stack takes at least last place $ (however many places are chopping) plus a little more. If they don't get better than last place money, they have no reason to chop since they won't come out worse by playing. Then the other places take proportionate to chip stacks or something similar, but that only works if one guy doesn't have most of the chips. Usually 1st will get less than if winning and ideally everyone gets at least some more than their current place would pay. Without those basic factors, chops won't work.

Last week we got down to me and another guy who also almost never offers a chop, and he is far less likely to chop than I am. I'll usually go along if I think it's reasonable. Payouts were $136 and $91. Our chip stacks were pretty close -- he had me by maybe 10BB and both had over 30BB. He suggested each get $100 and play for the rest. I agreed, but regretted it because I then got 2 strong starting hands in a row. Went all in first hand, but his hand was stronger. However, I caught help on the turn and he didn't. Next hand I had a better hand, called his all in, and once again, he had the better starting stack. I caught help on the flop and he didn't. I joked that it took me only 2 minutes to blow $9. Of course, it could just as easily have gone the other way. I don't feel bad at all and was happy with the $127. I got lucky.

At that point, some type of chop made sense because he and I have similar track records. It was likely to get down to who got lucky. A chop benefits both. I'd have even taken more each and played for less. You never really know what is going to happen at that point in the game.

I'm more likely to chop in a "friendly" game because it is friendly. Some have said they are less likely. I'm not likely to be the one to suggest a chop, so if they aren't inclined, I'm always willing to fight it out.
 
I'm known to rarely offer to chop, but will accept what I consider a reasonable chop. A lot of factors go in that evaluation (Kyle has a good list). I generally like BG's idea of a chop based something on chip stacks. Once I was chip leader and a chop was offered that would have left the last one with less than the payout they'd receive for playing it out and losing. I didn't think that was fair, so I insisted on an equal chop. It seems crazy and I wouldn't normally have done it, but they wouldn't consider paying her the last place amount without it. She wouldn't have disagreed with the chop out of courtesy to the host and others.

One way that will usually work is that the smallest stack takes at least last place $ (however many places are chopping) plus a little more. If they don't get better than last place money, they have no reason to chop since they won't come out worse by playing. Then the other places take proportionate to chip stacks or something similar, but that only works if one guy doesn't have most of the chips. Usually 1st will get less than if winning and ideally everyone gets at least some more than their current place would pay. Without those basic factors, chops won't work.

Last week we got down to me and another guy who also almost never offers a chop, and he is far less likely to chop than I am. I'll usually go along if I think it's reasonable. Payouts were $136 and $91. Our chip stacks were pretty close -- he had me by maybe 10BB and both had over 30BB. He suggested each get $100 and play for the rest. I agreed, but regretted it because I then got 2 strong starting hands in a row. Went all in first hand, but his hand was stronger. However, I caught help on the turn and he didn't. Next hand I had a better hand, called his all in, and once again, he had the better starting stack. I caught help on the flop and he didn't. I joked that it took me only 2 minutes to blow $9. Of course, it could just as easily have gone the other way. I don't feel bad at all and was happy with the $127. I got lucky.

At that point, some type of chop made sense because he and I have similar track records. It was likely to get down to who got lucky. A chop benefits both. I'd have even taken more each and played for less. You never really know what is going to happen at that point in the game.

I'm more likely to chop in a "friendly" game because it is friendly. Some have said they are less likely. I'm not likely to be the one to suggest a chop, so if they aren't inclined, I'm always willing to fight it out.
In your example... well, whoever offered that chop has no idea how to chop based on stack percentages. If there are three left and payouts are 800/400/200 you don't take 1400 and chop it up based on stack sizes. Per the math everyone does not start out at $0 as they are guaranteed $200.

In that case everyone's base starts at $200 and you chop the remaining $800 based on stack sizes.
 
I agree with what I think you are saying Ronoh; that's why I didn't agree. My chop resulted in her getting more, me taking less, but the person driving it taking less. He was (I believed) trying to take advantage of her and thought I'd just go along.
 

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