Did I play this 2/3 hand badly? (1 Viewer)

[Perthmike]

Wasn’t really looking for a street by street analysis so I figured I’d put the whole hand up in one go for discussion.

Playing 2/3 with a $300 stack and find myself in the sb with after 4 limps so I made it $20.

Mp player in his early 30s, seems a solid thinking player with a stack of $450 flats and an older guy, never seen him but he doesn’t look smart jams for $65.

I wasn’t overly keen to pay $65 pre flop with my hand, but I figured a limp jam for $65 is hardly ever a strong hand and that I’m likely ahead of most of his range.

I thought about going over the top to push out mp, but figured his range isn’t too strong either so wasn’t expecting him to get tricky and re-raise either. Additionally, flatting maybe looks strong so I did. Mp also flatted. Is this my first mistake?

Flop comes and I made it $60. Mp folded. Is this a mistake? Do I need to be betting here. I bet thinking I may get a fold, which isn’t a terrible outcome, but that I’ve got equity with my flush draw and one over. Should I be checking this spot?

I hit my flush on the turn and won, but mp seemed a little disgusted with me. He muttered about being ahead and then moved tables. I was a bit confused. Thoughts?

 

[colter ripton]

I think that the hand was played fine. You obviously don't want to be raising the sb with hands like K9 very often, but mixing it up and raising that hand in that position is fine on occasion. Once you get a flat and a 65 dollar jam it's basically an insta call. I think betting on the flop is fine also. You flopped the 2nd nut flush draw, and you now either want to push the other player out of the flop, or make him pay to continue/ build a pot of you hit.

Basically I think you played the hand just fine.

Again..... you don't want to be raising K9 suited very often, and especially in the small blind, but against 4 limpers there is a good chance you will win the pot with that bet. I think it is fine to mix up your game and raise with these type of hands occasionally, and when you hit a good flop you should almost always fire out a bet.

 

[Perthmike]

It’s right at the bottom of my raising range to be fair but when they all limp it’s probably the strongest hand a fair portion of the time.

The guy that shoved ended up showing q10 offsuit.

 

[Beakertwang]

In my opinion, measured aggression against passive play, with almost any hand, is the right play. Maybe they're getting trappy with AK, or JJ, or such, but if MP shoves after me pre-flop, I can get away and it only cost me 7BB. In this case, your call of the shove got you 2-1 on your money, 3-1 if you assume MP would flat. Still easy to get away from if you don't connect with the flop.

Your bet after the flop put you in control. If you checked, and MP bet $100 with his mediocre hand, would you have been able to call? If he called your $45, you just seeded the pot in case you catch the flush.

I am certainly not a great player, but it all seems right to me. He grumbles about you, but he limp/calls with what? 99? A7? Poker rewards aggressive play.

 

[DrStrange]

Pure grunch this time. . .

TLR Fold preflop. thank your lucky star that the flop was so good, all-in on the flop. Get there just one time.

Preflop raise from the small blind is a mistake. Bad position, 100bb stack, playing a marginal speculative hand. Hero is going to depend greatly on fold equity to make this line profitable. Luck wouldn't hurt either.

Limp/jam from a short stack always means business unless the player involved is drunk/drugged/falling asleep or if the player is on monkey tilt. We don't know one way or the other and neither does Hero. I'd be shocked if Hero isn't a 40/60 dog vs the range, including the drunk/asleep version of villain.

What Hero does know is that the SPR on the flop is going to be less than two where top pair hands should never fold. Hero also knows he has no fold equity vs the all-in player. Hero's K9s will need to win on its merits.

yes, Hero does want to bet the flop. He mostly has a 50/50 flip vs hands that will call the jam. But Hero is almost never ahead at the river if his draws don't get there. If villain doesn't bet all in after a check from Hero, he isn't calling very often after a flush hits the board unless he holds the ace of diamonds. (he shouldn't call with the nut flush draw, but he might). If MP were the LAGtard type, maybe a check/jam line could be profitable.

Bottom line - - Hero made a fancy play followed by a clean mistake and got lucky. No reason to fault luck, but don't mistake a good outcome with a well played hand. This wasn't that.

Grats on the win! -=- DrStrange

PS If hero is going to play this sort of hand aggressively, position is vital. So a button bet might be fine, but not so much from the small blind.

What was Hero's plan if the flop didn't result in top pair or a flush draw?

I'd amend Hero's read on the MP villain. Looks more like passive, loose sticky than solid player. Hard to justify the limp/call line with any sort of "solid" player hand. The ultra small SPRs involved should sharply restrict the hands in play.

 

[Perthmike]

Pure grunch this time. . .

TLR Fold preflop. thank your lucky star that the flop was so good, all-in on the flop. Get there just one time.

Preflop raise from the small blind is a mistake. Bad position, 100bb stack, playing a marginal speculative hand. Hero is going to depend greatly on fold equity to make this line profitable. Luck wouldn't hurt either.

Limp/jam from a short stack always means business unless the player involved is drunk/drugged/falling asleep or if the player is on monkey tilt. We don't know one way or the other and neither does Hero. I'd be shocked if Hero isn't a 40/60 dog vs the range, including the drunk/asleep version of villain.

What Hero does know is that the SPR on the flop is going to be less than two where top pair hands should never fold. Hero also knows he has no fold equity vs the all-in player. Hero's K9s will need to win on its merits.

yes, Hero does want to bet the flop. He mostly has a 50/50 flip vs hands that will call the jam. But Hero is almost never ahead at the river if his draws don't get there. If villain doesn't bet all in after a check from Hero, he isn't calling very often after a flush hits the board unless he holds the ace of diamonds. (he shouldn't call with the nut flush draw, but he might). If MP were the LAGtard type, maybe a check/jam line could be profitable.

Bottom line - - Hero made a fancy play followed by a clean mistake and got lucky. No reason to fault luck, but don't mistake a good outcome with a well played hand. This wasn't that.

Grats on the win! -=- DrStrange

PS If hero is going to play this sort of hand aggressively, position is vital. So a button bet might be fine, but not so much from the small blind.

What was Hero's plan if the flop didn't result in top pair or a flush draw?

I'd amend Hero's read on the MP villain. Looks more like passive, loose sticky than solid player. Hard to justify the limp/call line with any sort of "solid" player hand. The ultra small SPRs involved should sharply restrict the hands in play.

Hahaha you ruined me, but thanks for the analysis.

Maybe I need to reassess my open range from sb. I didnt feel like limping and thought I maybe had a good chance to take the pot down preflop or at worst play heads up.

I can’t fold pre because it’s 2/3, so only $1 to call. I never limp, so that was part of my thinking.

Should I be tightening up my raising range from sb a bit more? What’s the worst suited king I should be putting in my raising range? Kj?

 

[DrStrange]

Hero should have a huge small blind limping range in a $2/$3 game. There is no reason to feel compelled to raise hands like T9o or A4o or K9s from terrible position. Limp, see a flop, fold most of the time. Fight from the better positions, look to surrender from the blinds and UTG.

Take this from a nitty point of view - - - I have a raising range from the small blind something like this: JJ+, AQs, AK, tiny amount of air, assuming I am not playing a short. short stack that is jamming all in or at a short handed table. I hate playing out of position. More so multiway. ( just noting 24 big pairs plus 20 big aces in my range is balanced.) Also note that my small blind raise range might collapse to zero hands if the stacks are deep enough. I might set mine with aces playing super deep vs skilled villains. Note that nitty DrStrange has no suited kings in his small blind raise range.

I also will be folding for a dollar over half the time. Yes, the direct odds are almost always +EV but the negative implied odds are highly persuasive for me.

As noted, I am a card carrying NIT in the small blind. You can rob me blind. I fold at the first whiff of trouble. Most people aren't quite so extreme about this, but some level of fear is justified playing weak cards from the worst position.

 

[upNdown]

Hero should have a huge small blind limping range in a $2/$3 game. There is no reason to feel compelled to raise hands like T9o or A4o or K9s from terrible position. Limp, see a flop, fold most of the time. Fight from the better positions, look to surrender from the blinds and UTG.

Take this from a nitty point of view - - - I have a raising range from the small blind something like this: JJ+, AQs, AK, tiny amount of air, assuming I am not playing a short. short stack that is jamming all in or at a short handed table. I hate playing out of position. More so multiway. ( just noting 24 big pairs plus 20 big aces in my range is balanced.) Also note that my small blind raise range might collapse to zero hands if the stacks are deep enough. I might set mine with aces playing super deep vs skilled villains. Note that nitty DrStrange has no suited kings in his small blind raise range.

I also will be folding for a dollar over half the time. Yes, the direct odds are almost always +EV but the negative implied odds are highly persuasive for me.

As noted, I am a card carrying NIT in the small blind. You can rob me blind. I fold at the first whiff of trouble. Most people aren't quite so extreme about this, but some level of fear is justified playing weak cards from the worst position.

I’m 100% with you. Probably too small of a sample size to be meaningful, but I’ve noticed an improvement in my results since I stopped raising out of the small blind.
@Perthmike i hear what you’re saying about not limping, and I totally appreciate punishing/exploiting limpers in position. But the small blind sucks. It’s not the place to get fancy. At least not for me,

 

[Perthmike]

Agree with most of your points, especially regarding position, but I think I’m still going to raise the position. I will however tighten my range a bit, since it does put me in some hairy spots, as evidenced from the op hand.

As an update I just got the same hand 5 minutes ago in sb. I limped and whiffed the flop.

 

[BGinGA]

I’m 100% with you. Probably too small of a sample size to be meaningful, but I’ve noticed an improvement in my results since I stopped raising out of the small blind.
@Perthmike i hear what you’re saying about not limping, and I totally appreciate punishing/exploiting limpers in position. But the small blind sucks. It’s not the place to get fancy. At least not for me,

Long-term, those limpers will be the ones exploiting a weak-hand sb raiser, not the other way around. I love slow-playing monsters against an aggro sb player -- it is usually very profitable.

 

[upNdown]

Long-term, those limpers will be the ones exploiting a weak-hand sb raiser, not the other way around. I love slow-playing monsters against an aggro sb player -- it is usually very profitable.

Right, that’s why I said “in position.”
I recently said that so often when I found myself screwed, with chips in the middle, asking “how did I get myself in this position” it was when I was holding J10. I’ll amend that to add, or when I was in the small blind.
Proceed with caution out of the small blind when playing competent players!

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'm almost entirely on board with DrStrange here, except I wouldn't fold K9s preflop in this spot. Just complete the SB and see a flop. Reopening the action and creating a bloated pot with this kind of hand in this position is a mistake. Once the short-stack shoves, I can see a case for either calling or folding. Neither is dramatically better or worse.

As played, the small bet on the flop was fine. You set your own price and gave MP a chance to fold, improving your odds to win the already large pot. But you really did get lucky on multiple fronts here.

I'm not in the super-nit camp. I have some non-premium hands in my SB raising range against the right crowd in the right spots. But K9s really isn't one of them, outside of extreme short-handed situations. Typically, either you take down the limps from a bunch of hands that weren't great in the first place, or you end up getting action when you're dominated. Flopping a king or nine will either get you no action, or action against a better hand. You need to catch two pair, a straight, or a flush, and all of those unlikely top-potential hands may still end up beaten, costing you your stack.

"You gotta be in there raising" is a great soundbite, but in cash poker, the right play is the right play. Overriding an easy SB completion to opt for a bad raise because "I never limp" or "I didn't feel like limping" will cost you money in the long run, and probably a lot of it.

 

[MatB]

if you got someone to mumble how they were ahead, AND get a table change. You did EVERYTHING right.

You crushed his soul.

 

[Pesto628]

Hey, you got lucky and sometimes that’s better than being right

I don’t like to raise against limpers with K9 suited oop... judging by all the limping it’s probably a fishy game and I’d bet at least one of the limpers finds a call. Now you’re oop with a mediocre hand, which is no good.

Personally, I’d probably complete from the small blind in this spot and take the good pot odds.

Btw the guy who complained played terribly and probably lost more money at the next table

 

[DoubleEagle]

Position is everything...

 

[Perthmike]

Position is everything...

I do agree completely and I’ve been thinking about my strategy a bit more recently.

The average player at my locals are so bad post flop, that I still like opening my hands from a range of positions (granted that range opens depending on the position). Many of them are so face up that it’s easy to be profitable. That and I’m more likely to get paid off on my bigger hands.

Definitely something I’m working on though, and trying to learn as much as possible which is why I like these discussion threads.

After 12 months I’m at 8bb profit per hour. I’d like that to hit 10 because Perth players are pretty poor. Always looking to improve.