Did I play AQ wrong? (1 Viewer)

Youda04

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Playing in a live 9 handed full ring table with 1/3 blinds.

This has been a very loose 1/3 game. Hero (i.e. me) is UTG with AQ unsuited and limp because someone always bets (that’s how the games been going…super agro).

Cut-off (he’s a TAG) raises to $20 and Hero 3-Bets to $60. Only HJ (he’s short stacked with around $150 after his call) and cut-off call (all the limpers in between fold – can’t remember how many limpers but the pot is approx. $200 now).

Flop is A78 rainbow. Hero and HJ check and cut-off bets $100 into almost a $200 pot and now the pots around $300. Hero only has around $350 left, so options are either fold or go all in (I think it’s just too tight to fold AQ here). I’m pretty sure cut-off has an Ax. I go all in and HJ folds and cut-off tanks and finally calls with AK and wins.

I’m curious if there was a better way to play this situation and if there was a way to get away from this.

Thanks
 
Do you have any reads or info from previous hands of any of the other players in the hand? That would help us provide more accurate feedback
 
I’d have to guess you’re re-raising a TAG to 20x the BB while out of position with AQo to gain information. What’s his range here? What info did you gather? And what flop were you hoping for after two calls?
 
I would just open raise to a normal amount and take it from there. Not a fan of limp 3-betting with any hand and doing it with AQo in a 9-handed game really seems like over playing your hand.

Once you do though and get an A-high flop with a bunch of money in the middle there’s not much getting away from it.
 
Do you have any reads or info from previous hands of any of the other players in the hand? That would help us provide more accurate feedback
Overall it was an aggressive table, with lot's of raising pre-flop (no cheap flops). In the above hand example (I'm UTG), the players that stood out in my mind were: the player to my immediate left (UTG+1) was a good LAG (I heard him talking a lot with his friend, who was sitting on the button, about GTO, exploitive plays, balancing ranges, leveling, etc.) He was a winning player at the table and showed well timed bluffs. UTG+2 was more of a bad LAG (bordering maniac). LJ was a good TAG (didn't get in a lot of trouble but picked up lots of smaller pots, slowly and steadily). HJ was a bad player and had been playing most of the game short-stacked. Cut-off is a good TAG as well (bit looser than LJ but still considered a TAG). Button is the buddy of UTG+1 and it was very apparent that they both were very good players, with sound poker fundamentals.
 
I would just open raise to a normal amount and take it from there. Not a fan of limp 3-betting with any hand and doing it with AQo in a 9-handed game really seems like over playing your hand.
Yup. I’d save that move for AA, KK, AK, or maybe some lower hands that are easier to get away from, post flop. But you’re just asking for trouble with AQ. I think that’s the one they call the parking lot hand. Doyle has said he won’t play it. Blah blah blah, point is you need to realize AQ is dangerous.
 
I’d have to guess you’re re-raising a TAG to 20x the BB while out of position with AQo to gain information. What’s his range here? What info did you gather? And what flop were you hoping for after two calls?
My 3-Bet preflop was only 3 times TAGs raise. Given the super agro dynamics of the game, I decided to not bet my early position good hands and went for the limp 3-Bet approach instead. On the flop, maybe I should have C-Bet the flop. It is possible that AK would have then 3-Bet his AK and then I'd have a better idea of his range (my range to him would look like JJ+, AK, AQ; therefore, if he was willing to 3-Bet me on the flop, I should have assumed AQ was no good). However, given the path I took, I put him on a range of 88+, AK, AQs, AJs. I was hoping for an Ace on the flop, which I got; however, after I checked the flop and he bet $100, I really didn't know where my AQ stood.
 
If your going to play it this way (which I'm not a fan of), then you just have to go all in here. Folding would be ridiculous if you thought AQ was good enough to limp reraise in the first place.
 
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AQ off suit is a hand that everyone loves, but really is not that good in an 8 handed game.

If the cutoff was truly a TAG, raised pre flop and subsequently bet on the flop, he is pretty much indicating that he has a good hand like AA or AK, which under no circumstances is he folding to an all in bet. I think if the player was truly a TAG he would have played AA and AK the same in a fishy game because the outcome most times would be the same.

I probably would have folded AQ off suit pre flop to a TAG.

It sounds like the TAG was one of the better players at the table and you could have found a potential better spot against a weaker player.
 
Okay, read the post.

I hate the limp x3. But honestly, this should have told you to fold. When he called your limp 3x, he's repping better than your AQ (a table read could change this, but I'd say in average, that's a nuts flex against a nuts flex). A Hits, I'm guessing AA, AK, KK. His initial bet, I'm walking away. Yes, maybe a QQ or JJ sneaks a win, but on average your getting crushed.

So, in that logic. I love your limp x3, I wouldn't have done it myself, but I think it gave you all the info you needed for a different outcome.
 
Nah, that's a cooler.

But I would have approached it differently. I would have raised UTG and flatted any three bet/folded to any four bet if the table was loose and action packed. Cut off would have absolutely three bet AK if bet into from early position. Best case is you're heads up against cut off if you call his three bet anyway.

Either way, as @navels said, many ways to skin a cat, but the end result would have been the same.
 
If people are going to go crazy and raise and 3 bet a lot with trash and get overly aggressive, then limp reraise KK or AA. This is assuming they will always call because they like the action. If they fold when you do silly things like limp reraise, then don't ever do it.

My general advice would be too never limp reraise except in shorter stack situations where people don't ever fold and you limp reraise if just a jam.
 
Straight up, you COULD actually fold pre here with AQo UTG. I wouldnt, but in an action game OOP, it's probably the best play.

If you took limp first in out of your game and never did it again, it would be +ev.

I would personally raise pre to $15, then STRONGLY consider folding to any 3 bet preflop (if a known LAG 3 bets me, that's different).

If nobody raised me preflop, anchors away on that flop. Not sure why you would 3 bet pre, hit that flop then check.
 
Nah, that's a cooler.

But I would have approached it differently. I would have raised UTG and flatted any three bet/folded to any four bet if the table was loose and action packed. Cut off would have absolutely three bet AK if bet into from early position. Best case is you're heads up against cut off if you call his three bet anyway.

Either way, as @navels said, many ways to skin a cat, but the end result would have been the same.

I think this is incorrect. If you raise preflop UTG, you are doing so with a strong range....AQ would be rock bottom of a well constructed range for UTG. If you then get 3 bet by a TAG, you should be able to get away from AQo here.

AQ UTG is a foldable hand, you don't have to go broke here.
 
I think this is incorrect. If you raise preflop UTG, you are doing so with a strong range....AQ would be rock bottom of a well constructed range for UTG. If you then get 3 bet by a TAG, you should be able to get away from AQo here.

AQ UTG is a foldable hand, you don't have to go broke here.
At a typical table, I 100% agree. At a looser table, I'm thinking I may be ahead a lot of the time preflop.
 
Are you guys not opening some suited connectors and smaller pocket pairs UTG? That's what I'm folding to a 3-bet. AQ offsuit being the bottom end of what I'm calling with.
 
At a typical table, I 100% agree. At a looser table, I'm thinking I may be ahead a lot of the time preflop.
your thinking is opposite. At a loose table, you should be playing tighter from EP. At a tight table, you can loosen up, as your raise will get more folds....and when you get 3 bet, you can confidently fold knowing your AQ is likely dominated.
 
Are you guys not opening some suited connectors and smaller pocket pairs UTG? That's what I'm folding to a 3-bet. AQ offsuit being the bottom end of what I'm calling with.
no. Not from UTG.
 
First - strategy threads are more informative when we discuss each decision point without out knowing the results. People are terrible judges of what is best once they know what actually happened.

Hero's plan is filled with fancy plays. I think the preflop play arguably misguided from start to finish.

AQo isn't a terrible hand. It is roughly a top 5% hand. Often the best hand at the table. Can't help but note that hero's position is poor. AQo vs an aggressive and skilled table might well be a fold preflop if Hero thinks he is out matched.

Playing AQo as a limp / three bet hand is an acceptable short stack play. But Hero is sitting on over 100bb - Hero might ponder what his plan was going to be when the flop doesn't pair the ace or queen. Most of the money is going to be risked post flop. Is hero intending to 3-bet preflop only to check fold most of the times post flop? Is hero planning to bluff post flop, knowing the stack to pot ratio is going to be very low? No one should be folding top pair when the SPR is less than two. We should be discussing the merits of the preflop plan in depth.

OK, so now hero has stuck a toe in the water - risking $3. Easy enough to let the hand go if needed. Hero sees the TAG open raise 6x followed by one cold caller who is playing less than 100bb. Action back on hero. I assume that the TAG selective, but his range is likely top 10% making AQo a so - so race vs Villain's range.

We don't know if the TAG is skilled or not. Almost by definition, the short stacked cold caller is questionable. Should Hero fold here or not? If hero isn't folding, should he jam preflop? Really the whole hand is set in stone by the preflop decisions. Post flop is more a formality due to the huge preflop pot vs remaining stack sizes.

Once Hero gets to the flop with top pair / good kicker and low SPR, he should go broke. Again, it would be worth discussing the merits of "normal" betting in flow vs the fancy play check-raise. But not so much once we know the results of the hand.

tldr - hero's preflop plan with AQo from bad position is highly questionable. But once we get to the flop as played, Hero should stack off. -=- DrStrange
 
Aq always a tough hand. Generally i would limp and then depending on players and amount of raise, call or fold to a raise since im only in for 3 dollars and out of position. Putting in 60, knowing youre likely gonna get called at a loose table is risky, given youre out of position and alot of hands can hit and hurt you, or they may already have you beat. if you hit nothing on the flop what is you move? Check and fold? bluff? If you hit a queen youre likely ahead unless its an ugly board or a set gets you, and if an ace hits maybe youre good....
Played like this yes its tough to get away since pot almost 200 already. Bettor likely has ak,aq,aj (if he calls alot of reraises). I wouldnt guess aa or kk as he most likley would have 4 bet.
Anyway youre pretty stuck and its more your read on the player. Better to take it easy if its the first hr and not get into this situation,unless you already know the players at the table. LIkley better to see more flops in later position to crack someone, then have to make tough calls becasue you built a big pot preflop with a marginal hand being out of position
 
Thank you all for your inputs. After contemplating everyone’s views and doing some additional research, even though it wasn’t obvious to me at the time but it is now, I definitely overvalued my hand and played it wrong (especially OOP against a tough opponent). I also purchased ‘Jonathan Little on Live No-Limit Cash Games volume 2’ book and he goes through 7 AQ examples (I also looked at his 3 AJ examples) and his recommended optimal plays are consistent with most of your views (e.g. don’t get cute and tricky with AQ, especially OOP (just play it ‘plain vanilla’)). I’ve definitely been playing my AQ too aggressive and it has been a bit of a leak (definitely losing more with AQ than I win). Having said all that, I’ve been looking into GTO solvers recently (I don’t know yet how to use it, but I wonder what GTO would say).

Just to answer or comment on some of your posts:
  • DrStrange had a good recommendation by stating, “First - strategy threads are more informative when we discuss each decision point without out knowing the results. People are terrible judges of what is best once they know what actually happened.” I like this recommendation, but how would I go about doing this? Do you mean I should just break out each step separately after we’ve fully discussed the prior step?
  • Good point on SPR. I hadn’t even considered that. I have to consider SPR in the future when I plan out my bets (but whether I went the fancy play route or plain vanilla route, my SPR would have still been low regardless).
  • Some of you asked what my plan would be if I missed the flop. Usually I would play my perceived range vs. opponent’s perceived range. A high card flop should favour my range as the EP 3-better; however, I realize it also could favour CO but his range would be perceived a bit a looser than mine I think (i.e. I think it’s possible for him to sneak in with suited connectors as well…he knows how to play perceived range vs range). So a high card(s) flop I c-bet, a mid or low card or wet flop I check and a reassess.
In summary and going forward:
  • I won’t try and get tricky with AQ (especially OOP and/or unsuited). I’ll do the standard bets if we only have limpers, and only call against an initial better (3-betting doesn’t seem to go well with AQ), fold if there are 3-bets or 4-bets involved (AQ doesn’t fair well against those ranges). I do realize that this can change based on situation and players, so occasionally I might play AQ different only for balanced play; however, for the most part, I’ll play it plain vanilla.
  • In hindsight, I think this would have been the standard way that this should have been played (let me know if anyone disagrees or knows what GTO solver would say):
  • My position is UTG and I should have opened with a bet. Textbook says 3 times the BB + an additional blind for the number of limpers (i.e. $9) but per this table dynamics, initial bets have been around $15 plus number of limpers and getting called by one or two players (so a $15 bet UTG would be warranted based on dynamics).
  • HJ and CO would have called (CO most likely would have 3-bet with his AK).
  • A 3-bet from a good TAG who’s got position should be a definite fold for me (especially OOP and unsuited). However, can I fold this live and under pressure…I think now that we’ve gone through this discussion I’d at least be more wary.
  • CO could have also just called.
  • Let’s assume CO only calls. The flop is somewhat connected (I wouldn’t say it was totally dry). I think a 2/3 pot bet here is standard. Again, if CO is able to 3-bet here, I should find a fold (my range in EP should be perceived as strong, so if he’s willing to 3-bet against my range, my AQ can’t be any good.
  • But again CO could have just called and kept me in. I think if CO just called my c-bet on the flop, I think I would have found it very difficult to get away from my AQ on the turn or river, unless a turn or river card completed a possible straight; then maybe.
  • Very tough hand to play all around.
Thanks everyone and great discussion!!!
 
Do you mean I should just break out each step separately after we’ve fully discussed the prior step?
Yes, those threads are called PAHWM (play a hand with me). Results will inevitably skew opinions.
 
Once you do though and get an A-high flop with a bunch of money in the middle there’s not much getting away from it.

Agreed here. Gonna be pretty difficult to get away after pairing your ace and committing 25% of his stack pre flop into a bloated pot. Could have tried just call him down, but pretty sure he’s getting his last $50 in there. Maybe you could make a read and let go of your hand on the flop if you knew the opponent will. But the opponent was too shallow and was gonna get doubled no matter what, I think.
 

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