Did I get angled? (1 Viewer)

[louBdub]

Table folds as the bets fly.

Goes to heads up post flop.

Fast forward….

River card drops.

I’m SB and first to act. I’m playing nit, so my action gets folds, and I show lots of winners. The story to believe is planted.

Villain, bets $3 out of turn (making his hand look weak, on a $20ish pot)

I have a boat, I see his $3 bet as weak, and decide to bet $50, thinking he insta folds….. but! I get snapped ALL IN…

I’m like wtf? How does a $3 out of turn bet become a ALL IN snap raise on my $50!?

I call, his boat is bigger than mine, I double him up.

So, was I? Just lookin to learn, get better, etc.

 

[doublebooyah85]

“Villain, bets $3 out of turn (making his hand look weak)”

How much was in the pot?

 

[louBdub]

“Villain, bets $3 out of turn (making his hand look weak)”

How much was in the pot?

Good point, edited OP - $20ish

 

[umbkcshah]

Minor deception, not a true angle. You more angled yourself.

Edit -you have a boat, so I guess you are over-betting to polarize monster/bluff. Opponent says FU and raises unknown amount. You call which can only really beat a stone bluff in this spot. *assuming semi-decent players.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Good point, edited OP - $20ish

I wouldn’t say he looked weak, but a value bet just to get some money from you.

We need to know what happened flop and turn.

And you betting $50 into a $30 pot after he bet $3 is an angle itself…

No matter what happens you’re probably getting it all in. You raise his $3? He raises you.

 

[louBdub]

Minor deception, not a true angle. You more angled yourself.

I feel this way too, I’m thinking I could have folded the hand and donated the $50.

His shove was way over the top. Super polarizing, either a stone cold bluff, or the nuts. But that damn $3 out of turn got me floppy and I just had to make the bad decision.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Depends on your read; if this person is brand new, no angle, but if they've played enough to understand that the $3 is a tiny bet, they might have been trying to induce a bluff. If they knew you had a full house I like to think they would have made it bigger. Just my read.

 

[Mojo1312]

Definitely an angle. If Villain had shouted "Doublebooyah, I am all in!" You would have known better than to call.

 

[davislane]

More info is needed. What are the stakes? stack depths?

 

[upNdown]

Yeah. I don’t think any other info is really needed. A lot could be said about this hand, but the bottom line is that he pretty much min bet out of turn with the nuts?
That’s an angle.
In the big wide world of angles, it isn’t the sleaziest. But it’s dirty.

 

[kmccormick100]

First off an out of turn bet isn’t binding, should be pointed out and you proceed with your action as you would have. Regardless, if you bet a normal size and he jams over the top are you calling off?

We need stack sizes, hands and action to this point.

 

[davislane]

First off an out of turn bet isn’t binding, should be pointed out and you proceed with your action as you would have. Regardless, if you bet a normal size and he jams over the top are you calling off?

We need stack sizes, hands and action to this point.

when i first read the OP it was listed as a river bet. maybe villian stated he thought it was checked to him and OP forgot to include that also.

 

[AWenger]

First off an out of turn bet isn’t binding

Wouldn't it be binding if the first player to act then checked after the out-of-turn bet?

Villain, bets $3 out of turn

I've ran a situations a couple times where I was first to act, and my opponent bet out of turn, and it turned out they got very excited about their hand and had a monster, and I think they probably just legitimately forgot they were last to act. One memorable time was in a home tourney when I had top boat, but my opponent had quads.

If somebody bets out of turn it actually removes their positional advantage. And it gives you, as the first player to act, more information than you would have had otherwise. So I don't see this as an angle at all. And every time I've been bet out of turn I think the proper strategic thing to do is to check, and then that bet will stand. If you change the action by betting a different amount, then the out of turn bet does not stand. At least that's the way I understand the rules based on the games Ive played in.

 

[upNdown]

And every time I've been bet out of turn I think the proper strategic thing to do is to check, and then that bet will stand. If you change the action by betting a different amount, then the out of turn bet does not stand.

I agree with that, and like I said above, there's a lot to be discussed about this hand, strategy-wise.
But an angle is all about intent. Do you think this guy bet out of turn because he was excited, or because he had some ill intent? Keeping in mind that he had a boat that wasn't bottom boat, and he bet $3 into a pot of $20, I have a hard time believing that was an excited mistake.

 

[Budha]

Hmm - I cast my vote no and totally missed the part about his having bet out of turn…lol.

It’s hard to say without being there if it was intentional or not. If intentional, yeah - shady IMO.

 

[LeLe]

I think both the players involved here are pretty new in Poker?

If so, I don't think either had angled. More like just too excited about their own hand (both having gotten a boat) and since both are new players they prob still don't understand putting people on ranges and what hand they can get value from by over betting the pot

I wouldn't worry and think too much about angling, just a couple of very excited players with boat

Villain, bets $3 out of turn (making his hand look weak, on a $20ish pot)

My first reaction is his hand is very strong. He wanted to bet so badly that he act before his turn

 

[Machine]

I think we need to define Angling, I created a poll.

If you mean deceive you by betting out first hoping you would raise him, so he could trap you into all in, I would say no based on a lot of experience. Acting out of turn when you have a good hand happens often, and its typically not intentional, but the person should be scuffed at to act in turn. Obviously knowing what he thought at the time is impossible so I could be wrong here, just don't think it's likely.

If you mean trap you into a raise so he could move all in with the nuts, yes, it is likely, evident by his small value bet and then all in. Is this angling is your question, I would say its subjective, but NO this isn't angling in my opinion. I define angling as intentionally cheating, sometimes that's a fine line but in this specific case, clearing trapping, but not cheating.

 

[CraigT78]

The fact that the raise was $3 and the all in was $50 means I can give you no advice at all, except play larger.

 

[Marius L]

The fact that the raise was $3 and the all in was $50 means I can give you no advice at all, except play larger.

Allin was not $50, lol, OP was raised allin on the river over his $50. Unknown allin amount. As far as I understand the OP at least.

Need more info here, like what was the stakes and stack sizes. What was on the board?

Don't seem like an obvious angle to me. But your 2.5x pot bet/call on the river and loosing seems spewy regardless. And a bit off topic, but your logic seems a little wierd - you think he is weak so you bet an insane amount. why bet that big if you think he is weak? Agree more like you angled yourself.

What do you think you would do if he didn't make that small out of turn riverbet?

 

[RainmanTrail]

Wouldn't it be binding if the first player to act then checked after the out-of-turn bet?

Yes

 

[RainmanTrail]

Betting out of turn is not angle shooting unless the player then tries to retract his bet if you then check to him after he bets out of turn. Which is why his out of turn action is binding if the player whose turn it is decides to check to him.

 

[Legend5555]

Boat over boat.

I have to ask... Was the board double paired?

 

[louBdub]

50c/50c

$200 buy in, the shove after my $50 was about $180. The hand played a few $5 bets, and raises, which is why the $3 river bet was odd, and had me go bigger to get the fold.

I said $50, and instantly got the all in from in. Made me sit back and ponder my decisions lol

I see good points made, thanks for those and I’m absorbing them all.

 

[louBdub]

After reading all, and thinking it over…

I think it was a mistake on his part, not an angle. I also think it was a mistake on my part for going with the over bet.

We’re both dumb poker players.

I learned a bit from posts above, and I will play better in the future because of it, thanks all!

 

[upNdown]

After reading all, and thinking it over…

I think it was a mistake on his part, not an angle. I also think it was a mistake on my part for going with the over bet.

We’re both dumb poker players.

I learned a bit from posts above, and I will play better in the future because of it, thanks all!

If you really believe that, I have to think your friend is a very bad poker player.

 

[umbkcshah]

$200 buy in, the shove after my $50 was about $180. The hand played a few $5 bets, and raises, which is why the $3 river bet was odd, and had me go bigger to get the fold.

I thought you said you had a boat. The board must have been like 8855K, and you had a 5? I'm just trying to come up with the scenario. Generally I want my boats to get calls. If I don't, I'm not going crazy with it trying to fold hands.

Or was it something fun like this - hand from a home game - I held Q8dd, Flop 558d, I bet - get min-raised - call because I have backdoor, top pair, and need to beat OPP (he's rivered Flush to my Top 2 and hit a gutterball on river to easily call a shove - anyway), Turn 8, check, check. River 5 - Opponent bets $25. I sigh call - he had the 5, why not AA one time?

 

[louBdub]

I thought you said you had a boat. The board must have been like 8855K, and you had a 5? I'm just trying to come up with the scenario. Generally I want my boats to get calls. If I don't, I'm not going crazy with it trying to fold hands.

Me: Q9
Him: A9

Board: QA9 9 A
It was dangerous, I didn’t find the fold, the $3 bet made me second guess and I sent it.

 

[Legend5555]

Me: Q9
Him: A9

Board: QA9 9 A

It was dangerous, I didn’t find the fold, the $3 bet made me second guess and I sent it.

Yeah.... Raising that river with your hand is thin. I don't mind maybe raising to like 20 for super thin value, but you can't call when he raises back.

Gotta ask yourself these questions:

1. Can I get called by a worse hands when I raise?

2. Can my opponent raise with a hand that's worse than mine for value?

3. What are the bluffs he can have?

Question 1 seems like NO. Pretty much all hands worse than a 9 are folding. MAYBE a Q gets sticky but you have a Q in your hand. So how many Qs can he have? And how do they get to this river and then bet?

Question 2 seems like a NO. Basically only a 9 or an A is raising your raise for value. And a 9 is ambitious because going back to question 1, what worse hands are you going to call with.

Question 3 seems like almost nothing unless your opponent is crazy enough to bluff JT or a Q here. Double paired board are notoriously UNDERBLUFFED.

 

[louBdub]

Yeah.... Raising that river with your hand is thin. I don't mind maybe raising to like 20 for super thin value, but you can't call when he raises back.

Gotta ask yourself these questions:

1. Can I get called by a worse hands when I raise?

2. Can my opponent raise with a hand that's worse than mine for value?

3. What are the bluffs he can have?

Question 1 seems like NO. Pretty much all hands worse than a 9 are folding. MAYBE a Q gets sticky but you have a Q in your hand. So how many Qs can he have? And how do they get to this river and then bet?

Question 2 seems like a NO. Basically only a 9 or an A is raising your raise for value. And a 9 is ambitious because going back to question 1, what worse hands are you going to call with.

Question 3 seems like almost nothing unless your opponent is crazy enough to bluff JT or a Q here. Double paired board are notoriously UNDERBLUFFED.

EXCELLENT INPUT!

Thanks a ton for helping, I understand all of it and can hopefully get better using it. I’m new, so I really appreciate this.

*I thought he was bluffing, his tendencies leaned that way, this hand, not so much haha.

 

[Poker Zombie]

*I thought he was bluffing, his tendencies leaned that way, this hand, not so much haha.

I find that statement interesting, as you describe him as a nit. Because he is a nit, the Ace is a key factor in a nit's very narrow range.

As for the angle, acting out of turn should be taken as a statement: "If you check, I'm going to raise $3". Any table discussion can be a way to gather information. Daniel Negreanu is an expert at measuring the cadence of his opponents speech, listening for dry-mouth, shaky breath, or even clamming up when the player would usually respond.

If you think talking at a table is an angle-shoot, then yes it was an angle. However, that would make for a very boring game, and would be best to just play online.