Diamond Chip Cleaner

Tommy

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I know this product has been discussed before. Mostly about it's main ingredient TSP, which is readily available at a lower price. I saw a few different formulations of TSP at the local hardware store. I decided not to play chemist with mixing, diluting, soak times, etc., so I gave DCC a try. Tom at DCC was nice enough to send me a sample to try.

dcc.jpg
(Solution that is left after cleaning about 400 chips)

I used a mini storage tote and soaked the chips in DCC for it's recommended 10 mins. About 50 chips at a time. (you can do more - the solution just has to cover all the chips)

Although not required, I agitated the chips around by shaking the tote about every 2 mins. After 10 mins I put the chips in another tote and rinsed them in warm water, then dried each chips with a towel. (DCC says just to wipe dry and not rinse, but that is if you want to have that anti-dirt/germ protection)

dcc1.jpg


BEFORE

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cp25before.jpg

AFTER

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The results were great! Absolutely no scrubbing needed. The product definitely works.
I am going to talk with Tom at DCC and see about getting bulk pricing.
 

ski_ex5

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Thanks, Tommy. I haven't used DCC before, but I did just try TSP for the first time in my ultrasonic cleaner a couple of days ago. The results were amazing.

Be warned that the majority of the products in the hardware store that have "TSP" in big letters on the front are NOT TSP. Look closely, and you'll see "substitute" in fine print. They do not contain trisodium phosphate.

Also be warned that, in my experience, real TSP fades chip colors at a faster rate than Oxi Clean. However, I found that TSP cleans at a MUCH faster rate than Oxi Clean (I got the job done with lower temperatures, and in less than 1/3 the bath time). Consequently, the bottom line fading I experienced with short TSP baths was roughly equal to or a little less than that experienced from longer Oxi Clean baths.

EXTREME WARNING - Don't use anything with real TSP (including DCC) or Oxi Clean on ASM chips, as it literally works to dissolve the chip material.

Anyway, the bottom line is that I now get 40 chips 100% clean in the ultrasonic TSP bath in just 45 seconds (that's not a typo) with no wiping, brushing, or scrubbing. That's a significant improvement over the ultrasonic Oxi Clean procedure I wrote in my ultrasonic thread. Using the TSP doesn't require you to be a chemist. I'm working on the text to update my ultrasonic thread, and should get the details posted later today.


DCC might be a nice alternative for those who don't wish to spend time dissolving two tablespoons of TSP in two quarts (8 cups) of water. DCC may also have other disinfecting benefits, though studies comparing regular soaps with anti-bacterial soaps appear to indicate that the anti-bacterial soaps show little or no benefit. Still, I'm very interested to learn more about the DCC formula, because I'm willing to pay extra for added benefits and/or convenience!

Tommy, you mentioned that you agitated your chips in the DCC, but that it wasn't necessary. I think you did the right thing. I'd bet money that the agitation was a *big* factor in the quality of cleaning you got. You might look at ultrasonic cleaning as the ultimate agitation. Oxi Clean, TSP, and DCC are all great cleaners, but using an ultrasonic unit drastically reduces the bath time, resulting in significantly less chip fading (especially with reds, purples, and some greens), and fewer issues with label and inlay problems.


Many thanks to the folks at Diamond Chip Cleaner for providing Tommy with the sample! Two thumbs up!


Ski
 

Tommy

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How did you come up with the 2 tablespoons of TSP to 8 cups of water ratio?

There are other ingredients in DCC that may or may not make it more stable and or safer to use on chips. I really don't know. I feel better using it after reading about all these ratios and percents in it's patent. LOL

Your cleaning machine and method is definitely the way to go if I had more chips to do. I wonder how DCC would work in it. :confused:
I have a few ASM chips. I will test DCC on them tonight and report back. They claim it's safe on all clay and and plastic chips. Probably will work on ceramics too. I have some of those too so I will dirty them up and test. ;)
 

ski_ex5

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How did you come up with the 2 tablespoons of TSP to 8 cups of water ratio?
Simple math. The manufacturer of my TSP - Lundmark - and others recommend 1/2 cup of TSP per 2 gallons of water for "heavy duty" cleaning. The conversions are 1 cup = 16 tablespoons, and 1 gallon = 4 quarts = 16 cups. So, another way of putting the manufacturer's recommended dosage is 8 tablespoons per 32 cups of water. Since I can put 8 cups of water in my ultrasonic, just divide that by 4 to get 2 tablespoons per 8 cups.

There are other ingredients in DCC that may or may not make it more stable and or safer to use on chips. I really don't know. I feel better using it after reading about all these ratios and percents in it's patent. LOL
I'm interested in reading about the other ingredients myself.

Your cleaning machine and method is definitely the way to go if I had more chips to do. I wonder how DCC would work in it. :confused:
I strongly suspect it would work great. What I'm not sure of is whether it would perform better than cleaning 40 chips in 45 seconds, or whether it would have any other significant benefit(s) over straight TSP.

I have a few ASM chips. I will test DCC on them tonight and report back. They claim it's safe on all clay and and plastic chips. Probably will work on ceramics too. I have some of those too so I will dirty them up and test. ;)
DON'T DO IT unless you're willing to lose those chips. Assuming that DCC actually contains real TSP (trisodium phosphate), it will dissolve away part of the chips and ruin them. Multiple people have experienced this and posted in forums to warn others. I haven't put an ASM chip in TSP myself, but I don't think this is a hoax.

I haven't used TSP on ceramics yet, but I'm a bit concerned that it might fade the ink too badly. Ceramics are a lot easier to clean than clay (smoother surface, no tiny molded crevices, etc.), so I'll probably stick with Oxi Clean or even just Dawn dish washing detergent for the ceramics.


Ski
 

Tommy

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These will be experimental chips and I will be OK with losing them. I will check the chips every two mins until the full ten mins has elapsed. :)
 

ski_ex5

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OK, I've read the patent on the DCC. Thanks again for the link.

DCC = trisodium phosphate (TSP) + sodium bicarbonate (baking powder) + sodium carbonate (baking soda). This is a clever and effective combination of a strong surfactant (TSP) with effervescents (in non-technical terms, fizzy bubbly stuff). Oxi Clean uses sodium percarbonate and hydrogen peroxide for much the same reasons.

You can't blame them for trying to market their product as best they can, but I rather doubt DCC's claims about leaving a "protective coating" on the surface. Unless there are ingredients not listed in the patent, the only coating would be a fine powder of TSP, baking powder, and baking soda left over after the chips were completely dry. That fine powder would be removed if you oiled your chips.


I haven't written this before, but I've noticed in my recent experience using Oxi Clean in the ultrasonic unit that the first two or three batches of chips take longer to clean than subsequent batches. I strongly suspect that this is a result of the effervescent action significantly dampening the impact of the ultrasonic waves. Once the bubbly fizzy stuff goes away after cleaning two or three batches of chips, the ultrasonic unit does a better job cleaning subsequent batches of chips in the Oxi. It's possible that the effervescent action of DCC would have the same effect in an ultrasonic unit.


FOR ULTRASONIC CLEANING:
Without having yet tried DCC, I'd expect that straight TSP will continue to prove to be the best product to use in an ultrasonic cleaner for clay chips (non-ASM ONLY). I really love the ultrasonic unit, as it's so effective, and so FAST (especially when using TSP) such that you really minimize the fading of your chips.

FOR MANUAL CLEANING:
For manual cleaning, I'd expect that DCC will probably prove to be a bit more effective than Oxi Clean, albeit at the possible cost of a higher degree of fading (because of the TSP in the DCC), especially if you leave the chips in the DCC/TSP any longer than absolutely needed. Regardless of what you choose to use, work hard to minimize the bath times in order to minimize chip color fading. Yes, oiling the chips (only after thorough overnight drying!) helps "bring back the color." However, I have some Casino Aztar Paulsons that were cleaned manually in 15 minute Oxi baths, dried, and oiled before I got the ultrasonic. There is a significant difference in the amount of fading on those chips when I compare them to Aztar and Par-A-Dice Paulsons that spent only 3 minutes in Oxi (and most recently, only 45 seconds in TSP).


Again... don't put ASM clay chips in ANY of this stuff!


Ski
 

UW85

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OK, I need to finally to break down and buy an ultrasonic cleaner and DCC -- got a bunch of Crystal Parks I've been avoiding that need a cleaning! Thanks for the heads up & info folks! Good stuff.
 

ski_ex5

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OK, I need to finally to break down and buy an ultrasonic cleaner and DCC -- got a bunch of Crystal Parks I've been avoiding that need a cleaning! Thanks for the heads up & info folks! Good stuff.

I love my ultrasonic, but for the reasons stated in my previous post, I don't think I'd use DCC in the ultrasonic. I think it will probably fizz/bubble like Oxi Clean, such that it would take a few batches of dirty chips before the DCC bath really became effective in the ultrasonic. I'd stick with TSP in the ultrasonic. It works three times faster than the Oxi Clean, and works effectively starting with the very first batch of dirty chips (TSP is NOT fizzy/bubbly at all).

If you don't get an ultrasonic, I think that DCC and Oxi Clean are probably better choices for manual cleaning.
 

Tommy

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Ski...I filled the ultra sonic cleaner with some Diamond Chip Cleaner last night (no fizz/bubbling like Oxi), used the metal basket that comes with the machine and set the temp at just 85. Dropped in a barrel of extremely diry casino used RHC chips for just 20 seconds, then wiped and dried each one with a micro fiber towel. Everyone came out super clean, no gunk left embedded in the hats and canes or around the edge. I know this post is worthless without pics, unfortunately I didn't take any before pics. :(

The next time I clean chips this way I will be sure to take before and after pics.
 

ovo

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Jim was selling this at the chiproom, last time I bought some
 

Tommy

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Tommy, did you go about cleaning the ASM chips?

I never did do that experiment. I'm just going to use on Paulsons when I have some cleaning to do. I have one sealed gallon left.
 

daschuck77

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I soaked my Crystal parks for shorter durations and used a magic eraser to gently wipe and rinse. Worked great.
 

duckdrummer

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What do you recommend for ultrasonic cleaners. I checked Amazon, and there were scores of the things at all manner of prices.
 

mtl mile end

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Since Diamond Chip Cleaner is TSP (a source of Phosphate) and washing soda and baking soda (both sources of Carbonate), it looks like Sterling's Magic Cleaner (1.4% phosphates and 1.6% carbonates) is roughly the same thing. One would hope the ingredients are different enough to avoid patent disputes, but they're essentially the same.
 

ski_ex5

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What do you recommend for ultrasonic cleaners. I checked Amazon, and there were scores of the things at all manner of prices.

See my Ultrasonic Chip Cleaning topic here:
http://www.pokerchipforum.com/showthread.php/3887-Black-Friday-Sale/page4

Note that I REALLY need to update the topic to eliminate Oxi-Clean, and replace it with Sodium Metasilicate (a TSP substitute), which is what I currently use. I also need to add photos of a minor mod to the chip barrel cage.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

Since Diamond Chip Cleaner is TSP (a source of Phosphate) and washing soda and baking soda (both sources of Carbonate), it looks like Sterling's Magic Cleaner (1.4% phosphates and 1.6% carbonates) is roughly the same thing. One would hope the ingredients are different enough to avoid patent disputes, but they're essentially the same.

There's almost NO WAY that Diamond Chip Cleaner contains real TSP (trisodium phosphate), which is very hard to find these days because it's so bad for the environment. Also, the DCC label itself boldly proclaims "SAFE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT" - so short of that being a bald faced lie, DCC doesn't contain phosphates.


p.s. to Tommy: This update was NOT brought to you by the "Reply to Multi Quotes" button! =-)
 

Tommy

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p.s. to Tommy: This update was NOT brought to you by the "Reply to Multi Quotes" button! =-)

multiquote-selected_40b.png


i used some DCC last night. I picked up 120 Blue Chip Casino $1s the other day. Only 20 had to be cleaned. They look brand new again.
 

ski_ex5

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p.s. to Tommy: This update was NOT brought to you by the "Reply to Multi Quotes" button! =-)

multiquote-selected_40b.png


i used some DCC last night. I picked up 120 Blue Chip Casino $1s the other day. Only 20 had to be cleaned. They look brand new again.

See my Ultrasonic Chip Cleaning topic here:
http://www.pokerchipforum.com/showthread.php/3887-Black-Friday-Sale/page4

Note that I REALLY need to update the topic to eliminate Oxi-Clean, and replace it with Sodium Metasilicate (a TSP substitute), which is what I currently use. I also need to add photos of a minor mod to the chip barrel cage.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

There's almost NO WAY that Diamond Chip Cleaner contains real TSP (trisodium phosphate), which is very hard to find these days because it's so bad for the environment. Also, the DCC label itself boldly proclaims "SAFE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT" - so short of that being a bald faced lie, DCC doesn't contain phosphates.


p.s. to Tommy: This update was NOT brought to you by the "Reply to Multi Quotes" button! =-)

multiquote-selected_40b.png


i used some DCC last night. I picked up 120 Blue Chip Casino $1s the other day. Only 20 had to be cleaned. They look brand new again.

I don't understand your fascination (and others' fascination) with engaging in such manual labor!

p.s. Hey, the "magic multi reply with quote button" feature works! :cool::cool::cool:

p.s. Hey, the "magic multi reply with quote button" feature works! :cool::cool::cool:

p.p.s. Perhaps it's possible to over-use the "magic multi reply with quote button" feature. :eek:



 

mtl mile end

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There's almost NO WAY that Diamond Chip Cleaner contains real TSP (trisodium phosphate), which is very hard to find these days because it's so bad for the environment. Also, the DCC label itself boldly proclaims "SAFE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT" - so short of that being a bald faced lie, DCC doesn't contain phosphates.

I have seen a patent application page in the past (not the one Tommy linked to above) that contains the chemical contents of the patented mixture - it is about half TSP and half washing soda (sodium carbonate) by weight with a little baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, probably as a buffer to keep it slightly basic - just like the Sterlings).

Phosphates are not deadly poison, they are just a hugely unecessary addition of nitrogen into the water system that leads to algae blooms and the like. They have been banned by many countries from laundry detergent for their environmental impact. However, you can still buy TSP in many states for cleaning applications. I know I can buy huge containers of the stuff in Quebec, Canada. Also, dishwasher detergent is, to the best of my knowledge, still almost pure phosphate compounds - even in America. I've often considered just using dishwasher detergent for cleaning chips, but since TSP is so cheap and I don't own a dishwasher (they put too many phosphates into the environment ;)), I have always used my home made DCC.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

And from the "patent" post Tommy linked to:

"Advantageously, cleaning solutions in accordance with the present invention are formulated using a mixture of three well known, readily available substances, sodium bicarbonate (NaHC0[SUB]3[/SUB], CAS RN 144-55- 8), sodium carbonate (Na[SUB]2[/SUB]C0[SUB]3[/SUB], CAS RN 497-19-8) and trisodium phosphate (Na[SUB]3[/SUB]P0[SUB]4/[/SUB] CAS RN 10101-89-0) . Each of these substances is essentially non-toxic and l(j) otherwise safe. Thus sodium bicarbonate is commonly known as baking powder and is often used as an additive in the preparation of foods as well as a cleaning agent. Sodium carbonate, commonly known as baking soda or sal soda is a well known cleaning additive or 1$ enhancer that also has uses, when in solution, as a skin cleanser in eczema. Finally, trisodium phosphate is well known as a water softening agent and as an ingredient in many common detergent formulations"

and:

"Thus embodiments of the 2 present invention are aqueous solutions having various concentrations of a mixture of sodium bicarbonate {hereafter SB) , sodium carbonate (hereafter SC) and trisodium phosphate (hereafter TSP) having a molar ratio of approximately 1:2.6:1.6. That is, for every 3d) mole of SB, 2.6 moles of SC and 1.6 moles of TSP are used to prepare the cleaning solutions of the present invention. In a typical "full-strength" formulation, an amount of solution having a first concentration is prepared by combining approximately 910 grams of SB, approximately 1,930 grams of SC and approximately 2,270 grams of TSP in approximately 208 liters of water; the water used is either deionized water, softened water or water processed through a reverse osmosis (RO) system. Such a typical "full-strength" l(j) formulation of the first concentration is thus approximately 2.46 percent (%) solids or active ingredients."
 

daschuck77

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2015-01-25 15.34.23.jpg

Is this the environmentally safer variety to try? I'm all about trying to make a safe mix with baking soda and baking powder. It's all about the chemistry ;)
 

Mental Nomad

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TSP-PF is not TSP at all.

TSP is trisodium phosphate.

TSP-PF is a phosphate-free alternative. It's sodium sesquicarbonate. I don't know if it's safe on chips.

- - - - - - - - - Updated - - - - - - - - -

It may make environmental sense to go phosphate-free when cleaning decks, siding, walls, and walks, but the amount of phosphate used to clean poker chips probably doesn't add up to much of a difference.
 

brains613

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I just spent an hour cleaning PCA dollars yesterday with a Mr. Clean wipe... Only got through two barrels before I lost my motivation. Where can I get some DCC ?
 

Tommy

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I just spent an hour cleaning PCA dollars yesterday with a Mr. Clean wipe... Only got through two barrels before I lost my motivation. Where can I get some DCC ?

http://www.diamondcasinoproducts.com/

Owner's name is Tom. They currently have a 20% off anything deal going on until 1/31. I may order some more.
Tell him you were referred by me and he may give you an additional discount. With the current promotion though maybe not.
 

brains613

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Thanks, Tommy. I saw all that. I just like being able to decide on buying something with all the information in front of me. I'm too socially awkward for sending unsolicited emails. But I'll message him now.
 

daschuck77

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You have no choice but to solicit him for an order. The Chiproom used to carry it but not any more. How many chips do you want to clean Brains?!??!
 
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Tommy

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It normally ships 4 - 1 gallon bottles to a box. You can order 1 bottle though. Shipping is via FedEx and adds a good bit of money to the overall cost. They should sell it in packets so the buyer just has to add distilled water. One bottle will do 1000+ chips. Probably many more but I like to change it out when it gets too dirty looking.
 
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