Cash Game Deeper But Not Richer (1 Viewer)

CrazyEddie

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I've read and reread a lot about the effect of deep stacks (including my previous question a few months ago) but I want to try a more concrete example and get people's thoughts.

Consider this hypothetical: An NLHE game, $50 buy-in, rebuy or top-off to $50 max. All players are comfortable spending about $200 on the night, i.e. buying in and then rebuying up to three times. Figure a typical mix of social players, varying skill levels, some nits some lags etc.
  • Game A: 25c/50c blinds, i.e. typical stacks are 100bb
  • Game B: 10c/20c blinds, i.e. typical stacks are 250bb
How differently are these two games going to play, and what kind of differences would you expect?

Which game would you recommend for a new host and a crew of enthusiastic but generally inexperienced players looking for entertainment value?
 

casinochipper22

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in general, deeper the stacks and more BB's on the table, the safer and tighter everyone plays. With the occasional huge pot for stacks when nut vs 2nd nut comes up. shorter the stacks, less BB's means more action up front in early streets. again, this is generalization.

as for hosting and creating a good game, if you want to cater to the amateurs and give them a better chance of winning, make the stacks and buy ins shorter. The deeper the stacks, the more it benefits the better players. Deep stack poker is like chess. Short stack poker is like flipping a coins.

buy in should be no more than 100BBs imo
 

turboj623

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@casinochipper22 pretty much covered what my answer would have been. When you have casual inexperienced players, there tends to be a lot of calling because everyone wants to see a flop. So, small buy-ins tend to go a long way for that reason, and people are more willing to flip a coin with less money knowing they can buy back in. That keeps the game friendly and people feel they get more out of their money.

The deeper the stacks get, the more complex the game gets. You have a lot of pre-flop strategies being executed to narrow down the hands or isolate your opponents. Newer and inexperienced players don't like this because they don't like pre-flop raises and mentally check out. As your games progress and your group is more familiar with each others playing style, the game will change and you will know when it's time to adjust the buy-ins or blinds.
 

Mojo1312

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Blinds start the action. That is it.

Drop the SB. This is 2021. No one is going to fold their SB in a limped pot, ever. If you find a player that does, give them my number.

Without knowing your group, what is the point of setting the blinds at .10/.20 if it takes a $5 raise to get any respect? Sounds like .50/.50, $50 buy-in is superior to .10/.20 if the players in your group are okay with dropping $200 in a single session of poker.

If you or others are uncomfortable playing deep, allow players to buy-in for less. ($30 to $40 or $40 to $50 for example)

How differently are these two games going to play, and what kind of differences would you expect?

Games don't play themselves. Adding three skilled players to any flop game involving 100BB's or 250BB's is going to have a greater impact on how that particular game is played than the difference in in the number of blinds. It takes one double up at a hundred BB's to get you to two hundred BB's.
 

Legend5555

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Opening raise sizes have a bigger effect on the game then the blinds. If the newer players are just going to limp a lot, then blinds have a bigger effect. Take Texas match the stack games for example. The 1/3 games play more like 2/5 with open raises to $20.

Shorter stacks typically lead to more all ins and more variance regardless of skill. While larger stacks really only benefit better players. Better players will raise more and reraise more and bloat pots when they think they can take advantage of weaker players. That edge is mitigated a bit by shorter stacks.

I'd say if players are willing to lose up to $200, then I'd just do .25/.50. most newer/recreational players like the excitement of all ins. Stacks will naturally get bigger. It will be a bit more volatile, but I think it will be more overall more enjoyable.
 

CrazyEddie

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Thanks for the insights, gentlemen.

I want to stress that what I'm investigating is the difference in number of bbs in play but not a different amount of money. A lot of the deep stack strategy pages I've read talk about how people adjust their play because they're reluctant to lose (or eager to win) such large amounts of money in a single hand, but in the two scenarios that I'm hypothesizing the amount of money to be won or lost is exactly the same, it just starts with a smaller forced bet.

Edit: Another way to think about it - instead of a deep stack game having bigger bets on later streets, here the deep stack game has (or rather, potentially could have) smaller bets on the earlier streets. But does that really make a difference?
 
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upNdown

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in general, deeper the stacks and more BB's on the table, the safer and tighter everyone plays.
I’d put a huge caveat there. Good players and experienced players will do this. Newbs and idiots will likely just piss more chips away, with deeper stacks.
And @Mojo1312 i will definitely fold my small blind with terrible cards like 2 7 or 3 8 or 4 9. Happily
 

Legend5555

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Thanks for the insights, gentlemen.

I want to stress that what I'm investigating is the difference in number of bbs in play but not a different amount of money. A lot of the deep stack strategy pages I've read talk about how people adjust their play because they're reluctant to lose (or eager to win) such large amounts of money in a single hand, but in the two scenarios that I'm hypothesizing the amount of money to be won or lost is exactly the same, it just starts with a smaller forced bet.
With more inexperienced players, they will often look at it in terms of money instead of BBs. Which is why a more important question is often: how much are they willing to risk?

The VFW game I play at is 1/2 with a max buy of $100, and most buy in for $60. Yet, if you tell them to lower the blinds, they laugh at you. So often the difference between playing .10/.20 and .25/.50 can be negligible of people are willing to risk $50 without to much thought. When we play .25/.25 with buy ins of $60 at my place, it tends to play more like .25/.50 with opens to 1.25 being the typical open.
 

Mojo1312

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I’d put a huge caveat there. Good players and experienced players will do this. Newbs and idiots will likely just piss more chips away, with deeper stacks.
And @Mojo1312 i will definitely fold my small blind with terrible cards like 2 7 or 3 8 or 4 9. Happily

Fair point that it is better to fold those hands when they occur, but there frequency is low enough to not be a factor when considering whether to make the SB and BB equal in value.

SB in a .25/.50 game facing a $3.00 or $4.00 raise isn't going to base his decision to call or fold on .25. So the only example one can give to support keeping the SB at half of the BB is in those few cases/instances where the SB is dealt rags in a four, five, or six-way limped pot.
 

upNdown

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Fair point that it is better to fold those hands when they occur, but there frequency is low enough to not be a factor when considering whether to make the SB and BB equal in value.

SB in a .25/.50 game facing a $3.00 or $4.00 raise isn't going to base his decision to call or fold on .25. So the only example one can give to support keeping the SB at half of the BB is in those few cases/instances where the SB is dealt rags in a four, five, or six-way limped pot.
Oh yeah, when you put it that way, absolutely.
 
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