Tourney Deep Stack (300bb) structure

Blind Joe

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I'm trying to put together a deep stack "High Roller" structure for one of my tournaments next year.

We are a low buy in group (typically £15—20 buy in, plus optional rebuy and the occasional bounty) so my main structures have evolved to last around 4 hours to reflect the relatively low prize pot.

One of the effects of that is they are slightly on the high side of aggression (eg 52% average increase with more 50% and 66% than 33%). That's not hugely aggressive but I would prefer to play a 33/50 style structure, which we did used to, but they lasted too long.

With that in mind I wanted to do a one off deep stack mild aggression tournament with a higher buy in to reflect the additional length of the tournament.

Screenshot_20201230-133755_Sheets.jpg


What do you think? It's only slightly longer and less aggressive than usual so I think there may be some alterations I could make, but I don't want to mess too much (or at all, really) with the "break every hour" which is a standard feature of my tournaments (and the bare minimum my weak bladdered associates will tolerate :rolleyes:) and I'd also like a single colour up rather than two, if possible. I start running into problems when I try to create a structure that fits all those criteria :tdown:
 

JustinInMN

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I think this starts off fine, but kinda goes off the rails at level 8.

I might propose this.
L8 800 - 1600 (33%)
L9 1200 - 2400 (50%)
BREAK 10m (no color up)
L10 1600-3200 (33%)
PAUSE 5m (NOT A BREAK color up 100 and 500)
L11 2000-4000 (25%)
L12 3K-6K
L13 4K-8K
BREAK

OR switch your levels to 18m, keep breaks at 10 minutes

L1-3 BREAK (1h04 elapsed)
L4-6 BREAK (2h08 elapsed)
L7 600 - 1200
L8 800 - 1600 (33%)
L9 1200 - 2400 (50%)
L10 1600 - 3200 (33%)
BREAK - COLOR UP T100 & T500 (3h30 Elapsed)

It's not perfect hour intervals between breaks, but it's still 3 breaks completed plus one extra level before 3:30 elapsed and puts the color up at a convenient spot without going too big on the increases.
 

JustinInMN

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Any chance of increasing the starting stack to 60k and starting at 100-200? That would put the break right where you want it and keep your 60 min play + 10m break pattern.

Meaning you could play
100-200
100-300
200-400
Break
300-600
400-800
600-1200
Break
800-1600
1200-2400
1600-3200
Break and color up
(15m)
2K-4K
3K-6K
4K-8K
6K-12k
Break
(10m)
8K-16K
12K-24K
16K-32K
20K-40k
30K-60K (probable EOT)
40K-80k
Break and color up
50K-100K
75K-150K
100K-200K
150k-300k
200k-400k
300k-600k
 
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Blind Joe

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Any chance of increasing the starting stack to 60k and starting at 100-200? That would put the break right where you want it and keep your 60 min play + 10m break pattern.

Meaning you could play
100-200
100-300
200-400
Break
300-600
400-800
600-1200
Break
800-1600
1200-2400
1600-3200
Break and color up
(15m)
2K-4K
3K-6K
4K-8K
6K-12k
Break
(10m)
8K-16K
12K-24K
16K-32K
20K-40k
30K-60K (probable EOT)
40K-80k
Break and color up
50K-100K
75K-150K
100K-200K
150k-300k
200k-400k
300k-600k
I like this, the 60K starting stack makes a lot more sense and allows for much smoother and consistent increases.

The only change I'd make is 15k/30k instead of 16k/32, simply because they're nice round numbers. It makes that increase slightly less but the next one slightly more, so the consistency remains the same as far as I can tell.

I've only gone up to level 50k/100k in my spreadsheet, which is below 10BB on the table for a full ring with rebuys, so I think a duration of between 5 to 5 1/2 hours is a decent prediction and what I'm aiming for.

Thanks!
 
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Santa123

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There is no need to reduce the Blindlevel to 15 minutes. You probably dont want the tourney last too long. But at this stage of the tournament stacks are shallow and you are down to fewer players which will speed up the game automatically.

I do also play 300BB single table tourneys (a little different, search for Triple Chance Tournament if you like) and the game never last more then Starting Stack * Number of Players * 2,5% => 30k*10*2.5% = Blindlevel 12 4000/8000.
 

JustinInMN

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The only change I'd make is 15k/30k instead of 16k/32, simply because they're nice round numbers. It makes that increase slightly less but the next one slightly more, so the consistency remains the same as far as I can tell.

If you do 800-1600, 1200-2400, 1500-3000 the issue is you are doing BB increase of 800 (1600 to 2400) followed by one of 600 . So typically the increases do not reduce, but if you are fine with that, go for it. By suggesting BB of 1600, 2400, 3000 I was attempting to take advantage of the T100 remaining in play to keep those increases smooth.

But if your preference is rounder numbers, the better answer is to change it this way: 800-1600, 1000-2000, 1500-3000. The T100 chips are on the table two levels longer than needed. You could rearrange the break to follow 800-1600 instead of 600-1200. You also could skip 800-1600 and do the T100 color up there, but that's a 66% jump from 600-1200 to 1000-2000. You also could just have a "pause" after 800-1600 to do the T100 color up and not call it a "break."

There are a lot of good ideas to massage this part of the structure to your liking, but no real perfect way that I can see.
 

Blind Joe

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There is no need to reduce the Blindlevel to 15 minutes. You probably dont want the tourney last too long. But at this stage of the tournament stacks are shallow and you are down to fewer players which will speed up the game automatically.

I do also play 300BB single table tourneys (a little different, search for Triple Chance Tournament if you like) and the game never last more then Starting Stack * Number of Players * 2,5% => 30k*10*2.5% = Blindlevel 12 4000/8000.

Reducing the level durations is something I've nearly always done since I started hosting, simply because once there are fewer players left you can play the same number of hands in less time.

I've never played or hosted a 300BB tournament so my estimation of when the player pool will reduce could well be off, but for my usual 150BB tourneys I usually reduce after the third break (ie 3 hours of play).

If you do 800-1600, 1200-2400, 1500-3000 the issue is you are doing BB increase of 800 (1600 to 2400) followed by one of 600 . So typically the increases do not reduce, but if you are fine with that, go for it. By suggesting BB of 1600, 2400, 3000 I was attempting to take advantage of the T100 remaining in play to keep those increases smooth.

But if your preference is rounder numbers, the better answer is to change it this way: 800-1600, 1000-2000, 1500-3000. The T100 chips are on the table two levels longer than needed. You could rearrange the break to follow 800-1600 instead of 600-1200. You also could skip 800-1600 and do the T100 color up there, but that's a 66% jump from 600-1200 to 1000-2000. You also could just have a "pause" after 800-1600 to do the T100 color up and not call it a "break."

There are a lot of good ideas to massage this part of the structure to your liking, but no real perfect way that I can see.
I understand your point. I used to prioritise things like blinds consistency and avoiding redundant chips a lot more, so wouldn't have changed anything, but these days I'm willing to compromise these principles a little if it means a better experience for the players.

I'm on the fence now! :tdown: :D
 

JustinInMN

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I've never played or hosted a 300BB tournament so my estimation of when the player pool will reduce could well be off, but for my usual 150BB tourneys I usually reduce after the third break (ie 3 hours of play).

Yeah I marked the estimated EOT on the structure I proposed based on the 20BB rule assuming you actually get 100% re-entry, so it's probably an over estimate. So even with the time reductions, I would guess that would come in at around 5.5 hours, but it seemed you were going for a longer than typical 4 hour tournament if I understood the OP correctly.
 

Blind Joe

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Yeah I marked the estimated EOT on the structure I proposed based on the 20BB rule assuming you actually get 100% re-entry, so it's probably an over estimate. So even with the time reductions, I would guess that would come in at around 5.5 hours, but it seemed you were going for a longer than typical 4 hour tournament if I understood the OP correctly.
Yes, I thought the only reasonable way to run a deep stack without making it a turbo was to accept the longer duration and increase the buy in (thus the total prize pot) to justify the extra time invested in playing.

If I revert back to the original 16k/32k structure and estimate a generous 50% rebuy rate with a full table it should typically end (using the 20BB rule) after about 5½ hours, give or take half an hour.

I was also thinking the T1Ks should be removed after the 16k/32k level, don't you think?

Screenshot_20210106-162328_Sheets.jpg
 

BGinGA

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Just for the record....

A 10-player 20k event will not last as long as a 20-player 10k event, even if both events have the same number of chips in play (and hit the 20bb mark at the same level). The 20-player event will take longer, mostly because there are more players that must be eliminated.

The same general principle applies to re-buy tournaments:

A 10-player 10k event with ten 10k rebuys will not last as long as a 10-player 20k event, even if both events have the same number of chips in play (and hit the 20bb mark at the same level). The no re-buy event will take longer, mostly because the ten re-buy stacks were not 'worth' as much (in terms of BB) at the time they were introduced into play.

Why bring this up? Because it impacts the estimated end-time of re-buy tournaments. These are good general guidelines for detemining the ending time for most tournaments:
  • For well-structured and balanced events*, the re-buy rate is typically between 25% and 33% of the field size.
  • For 1-and 2-table freeze-out events, the estimated end of tournament (EOT) typically occurs one level prior to the level where the blind amounts are equal to 20BB remaining in play.
  • For typical limited re-buy events, the estimated EOT is one or two levels longer (so 20BB level or +1).
  • For fields with very aggressive players, the EOT is typically one to two levels earlier.
  • For fields with very passive players, the EOT is typically one level longer.
  • For events that use antes, the EOT is typically one level earlier.
These can be combined to get a pretty good estimate of the ending level, which can be converted to total event time by multiplying by the blind level times and adding the toral length of scheduled breaks.

* This applies to events with average skilled players (an overall balance of highly-skilled, low-skill, aggressive, and passive players), sufficiently-sized starting stacks (150BB+), meaningful buy-in and re-buy costs (generally $40+, but varies by group), and a non-aggressive blind structure (<50% increases) with adequate blind level lengths (15+ minutes).
 

Blind Joe

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I'm glad you put that asterisk on the rebuy rate @BGinGA - if only the average skilled players turned up to mine we would get around ⅓ rebuy rate (I've monitored this in the past), but we have a couple of donkeys now who have absolutely no problem risking their entire stack in Level 1 with 72o :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: so we tend to be more on the 50% side of rebuys.
 

BGinGA

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I'm glad you put that asterisk on the rebuy rate @BGinGA - if only the average skilled players turned up to mine we would get around ⅓ rebuy rate (I've monitored this in the past), but we have a couple of donkeys now who have absolutely no problem risking their entire stack in Level 1 with 72o :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: so we tend to be more on the 50% side of rebuys.
Double the buy-in and watch the re-buy rate drop. :sneaky:
 

Blind Joe

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Double the buy-in and watch the re-buy rate drop. :sneaky:
If I doubled the buy in I'd worry about doing my turn out drop. I have to keep it affordable for those without deep pockets and also keep those players coming back who know they're almost certainly only going to be putting in the pot and not taking out.

Besides which King Donkey has DEEP pockets, he turns up to a £20, 1 rebuy tournament with about 200 buy ins — which reminds me, I really need to start a cash game :LOL: :laugh:

That said, this tournament itself will be a bit of a litmus test for what my group are willing to pay.
 

Blind Joe

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*Checks flights to the UK*
Seriously, I really need to start a cash game! These guys think of their rebuy as an excuse to play a hail Mary type hand thinking they might double up with absolutely nothing, and if it doesn't come off (which it doesn't :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:) they can simply rebuy and start over. Some of them have deep pockets so it would be interesting to see how they handled unlimited rebuys/top offs in a cash game.
 

BGinGA

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If your re-buy rate is too high (50%), I'd argue that a 20 pound entry is too low for your group.

Assuming that you are already limiting re-buys to one per player, I'd keep incrementally increasing it until either the re-buy rate or event attendance dropped.

That's the sweet spot for your group -- balanced where everybody is playing for a meaningful cost, and re-buys become bad-beat/cold-deck protection, not a tool for deep pockets to exploit.
 

Blind Joe

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If your re-buy rate is too high (50%), I'd argue that a 20 pound entry is too low for your group.

Assuming that you are already limiting re-buys to one per player, I'd keep incrementally increasing it until either the re-buy rate or event attendance dropped.

That's the sweet spot for your group -- balanced where everybody is playing for a meaningful cost, and re-buys become bad-beat/cold-deck protection, not a tool for deep pockets to exploit.
Maybe you're right, but our attendance has always been on the low side (due to numerous factors like smallish group, shift work, weekend work, working abroad, etc) so I've always been cautious about doing anything that would cause it to drop when it's already difficult getting a decent number together at any one time. They had been used to paying £10-15 per tournament so I stuck to that but now they're happy with £15-20.

During that time our attendance was typically 6-8 and we'd get 2-3 rebuys.

I've managed to grow the group quite a bit and yes, some of the players are very green (while others are reasonably skillful), and one is the donkey of all donkeys. If rebuys were unlimited then I'd agree that deep pockets could exploit them, but limited to one rebuy each I wouldn't have thought I needed to be concerned about one or two players donking away all their chips and adding to the prize pool. Either they'll learn or we'll keep exploiting them.

And just to reiterate one of my earlier posts, not everyone has deep pockets, some of us by a long way, so increasing the buy-in too much would push players out who I really want to keep in.
 
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