agreed - everyone can have own point of view and what they deem enjoyable at a poker game.
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Dedicated dealer: good or bad? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter pltrgyst
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agreed - everyone can have own point of view and what they deem enjoyable at a poker game.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
It's not a problem until the moment it becomes a big problem.
if your worried about tipping a friend to deal while gambling at a home game why are you even playing poker?
This is one of the stupidest things I’ve read on here. We’re talking about tipping (just like a waiter) a friend to deal your home poker game. Not cook Meth. Good lord.
what is difference of tipping hosts $5 or $10 bucks at the end of the night for all the snacks food Bevs etc?
is that income? - arguing to argue Imo.
oh better call the cops - Jack the host made $38 bucks in tips at end of night from players....
stick to casino then if your terrified of cops breaking down your door.
Pinesol13
Flush
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Dealing can be stressful for players. On an oval table dealing from the ends can be difficult. It also means the board is going to be at the ends of the table 1/3 of the time making it harder for the other end to see it.
when a player dealing from the ends misdeals in BigO or SOHE it can annoy everyone!
the vast majority of my players definitely prefer to only have to worry about actually playing poker.
It is also the reason I provide the food and drinks so they don’t have worry about any of that.
But if those parts of poker night aren’t as important to your group then a dealer may not be the right fit for your game.
when a player dealing from the ends misdeals in BigO or SOHE it can annoy everyone!
the vast majority of my players definitely prefer to only have to worry about actually playing poker.
It is also the reason I provide the food and drinks so they don’t have worry about any of that.
But if those parts of poker night aren’t as important to your group then a dealer may not be the right fit for your game.
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10centguitar
Two Pair
Dealer here. Sorry for the long message here. Hope this is helpful.
Firstly, if you have never sat in the box, and i mean like locked in until 8am, pulling 5+ shifts a week, pushing through 4-8 tables of mixed games kind of dealing, please please dont underestimate what dealers do. The worst thing in the world to us, besides a stiff, is dealing with players who have never dealt talking like they know what we should make or how to do our jobs.
That being said, i think its great so many of yall have gotten dedicated dealers or are thinking of going to one.
If not, no big deal. Plenty of games that have been running for decades are dealt by passing the deck or alternating two decks. But if you want your game to be more "legit" and faster, a dealer is required.
Dealers should dress nicely. If you have a home cash game, its ok if the dealer doesnt dress in a tie but the sweatpants and stained tshirt grinder kid you hire should put a little more effort in. A collared shirt tucked in will always work.
Some bigger games (especially cardrooms) have the dealers set decks, tourney chip starting stacks (if applicable), stock drinks/snacks, clean, etc at the end of their shift, so the next day is setup. If your dealer is going to deal 8+ hours and can only make $100 becuase you have a small game, then just have them deal.
Dealers should be paid in tips at a cash game and dealer appreciation fees and post game tips for a tourney.
A locking tip box, if available, should be provided if not the dealer can use a dedicated tube in the chip tray. If the table you have doesnt have a tray, have the dealer keep a chip rack in front of them with a dedicated slot for tips.
As game runner, when paying the tourney winners, passively encourage them to tip the dealers. 5-10% is honorable.
The dealers should never ask tourney winners to tip. The TD can say something like "congrats first place...and if you would like to leave anything for the dealers, i can take it to them."
Make sure your dealers are fed (if you are feeding the players) and can take adequate breaks to use the restroom. Obvious, but dont allow your dealers to consume alcohol while dealing.
If you have a decently sized game (money or tables), hire two+ dealers. Have dealers push every thirty minutes. If you have a brush, or chip runner, TD, or just someone running floor, you can require the dealers to pay out 10% of their tips to pay the above mentioned. Any more than that is rape.
If you have a small home game (im assuming what most people on this thread have), and youre thinking about going to a dedicated dealer, make sure you find someone who knows what they are doing.
Someone who deals for a living is highly unlikely to want to deal a .25/.50 cash game unless they are just starting out. Even then, a small 1/2 game using dice chips will pay more.
So know that you might not be able to get a dealer that actually knows much about what they are doing. But you can get someone with some knowledge rolling pretty quick.
Few things that can help:
Make sure they can read a board. Like being able to say the first 5 nuts or so is great.
Dealers should be able to set a deck.
Diamonds, clubs, hearts, spades K down to A.
Dealers should spread a new deck on the table when the game starts and at reasonable subsequent requests from players. Dealers should inspect the deck in front of the players. Cards should then be flipped face down and washed. Then shuffled.
Shuffles should be riffle, riffle, box, riffle, and a one-handed cut onto a cut card. Bridging cards or overhand shuffles by a dedicated dealer should be forbidden.
Have the dealers announce actions. Announce bet and raise amounts unless all-in, in which case they should state "player all-in" and count it down only if another player asks. Some places have the dealer throw an all-in button.
Mucks and pots should remain messy. (hi-lo pots can be pre split)
Burns should be placed consecutively under one another with the top half or so of the card going under the main pot.
The remaing stub after the board runs out should be spread with the cut card placed on top and not mixed with the muck until after pot is pushed.
In Community board games, the cards should have a little felt between them to aid in reading the board.
The dealer should never comment on the cards or influence action. (Like: "flush got there, or board paired now, youre gonna fold to that?, etc.)
The dealer should be able to make sure that there is no collusion, intentional or otherwise. "One player per hand" is something i say at least once a night when out of the hand players start commenting.
Make sure the dealer does not point to whose turn it is when someone isnt paying attention, as it is very rude, rather they should gentlly tap the back of their free hand on the felt in the direction of the player whose turn it is on and say "$20 to go" or "checks to you" etc.
Make sure the dealer can proof winning hands correctly and efficiently.
and muck all losing hands before pushing the pot.
In cash games when there are side pots, have those in the last side pot showdown first and have those in for the main reserve their hands until all side pots pushed.
If you dont know about dealing yourself, look up some poker dealer videos, and learn some before hiring someone.
When you do go to hire someone, give a short little interview or a chance to deal an orbit at your game and see how they do.
Cheers
Firstly, if you have never sat in the box, and i mean like locked in until 8am, pulling 5+ shifts a week, pushing through 4-8 tables of mixed games kind of dealing, please please dont underestimate what dealers do. The worst thing in the world to us, besides a stiff, is dealing with players who have never dealt talking like they know what we should make or how to do our jobs.
That being said, i think its great so many of yall have gotten dedicated dealers or are thinking of going to one.
If not, no big deal. Plenty of games that have been running for decades are dealt by passing the deck or alternating two decks. But if you want your game to be more "legit" and faster, a dealer is required.
Dealers should dress nicely. If you have a home cash game, its ok if the dealer doesnt dress in a tie but the sweatpants and stained tshirt grinder kid you hire should put a little more effort in. A collared shirt tucked in will always work.
Some bigger games (especially cardrooms) have the dealers set decks, tourney chip starting stacks (if applicable), stock drinks/snacks, clean, etc at the end of their shift, so the next day is setup. If your dealer is going to deal 8+ hours and can only make $100 becuase you have a small game, then just have them deal.
Dealers should be paid in tips at a cash game and dealer appreciation fees and post game tips for a tourney.
A locking tip box, if available, should be provided if not the dealer can use a dedicated tube in the chip tray. If the table you have doesnt have a tray, have the dealer keep a chip rack in front of them with a dedicated slot for tips.
As game runner, when paying the tourney winners, passively encourage them to tip the dealers. 5-10% is honorable.
The dealers should never ask tourney winners to tip. The TD can say something like "congrats first place...and if you would like to leave anything for the dealers, i can take it to them."
Make sure your dealers are fed (if you are feeding the players) and can take adequate breaks to use the restroom. Obvious, but dont allow your dealers to consume alcohol while dealing.
If you have a decently sized game (money or tables), hire two+ dealers. Have dealers push every thirty minutes. If you have a brush, or chip runner, TD, or just someone running floor, you can require the dealers to pay out 10% of their tips to pay the above mentioned. Any more than that is rape.
If you have a small home game (im assuming what most people on this thread have), and youre thinking about going to a dedicated dealer, make sure you find someone who knows what they are doing.
Someone who deals for a living is highly unlikely to want to deal a .25/.50 cash game unless they are just starting out. Even then, a small 1/2 game using dice chips will pay more.
So know that you might not be able to get a dealer that actually knows much about what they are doing. But you can get someone with some knowledge rolling pretty quick.
Few things that can help:
Make sure they can read a board. Like being able to say the first 5 nuts or so is great.
Dealers should be able to set a deck.
Diamonds, clubs, hearts, spades K down to A.
Dealers should spread a new deck on the table when the game starts and at reasonable subsequent requests from players. Dealers should inspect the deck in front of the players. Cards should then be flipped face down and washed. Then shuffled.
Shuffles should be riffle, riffle, box, riffle, and a one-handed cut onto a cut card. Bridging cards or overhand shuffles by a dedicated dealer should be forbidden.
Have the dealers announce actions. Announce bet and raise amounts unless all-in, in which case they should state "player all-in" and count it down only if another player asks. Some places have the dealer throw an all-in button.
Mucks and pots should remain messy. (hi-lo pots can be pre split)
Burns should be placed consecutively under one another with the top half or so of the card going under the main pot.
The remaing stub after the board runs out should be spread with the cut card placed on top and not mixed with the muck until after pot is pushed.
In Community board games, the cards should have a little felt between them to aid in reading the board.
The dealer should never comment on the cards or influence action. (Like: "flush got there, or board paired now, youre gonna fold to that?, etc.)
The dealer should be able to make sure that there is no collusion, intentional or otherwise. "One player per hand" is something i say at least once a night when out of the hand players start commenting.
Make sure the dealer does not point to whose turn it is when someone isnt paying attention, as it is very rude, rather they should gentlly tap the back of their free hand on the felt in the direction of the player whose turn it is on and say "$20 to go" or "checks to you" etc.
Make sure the dealer can proof winning hands correctly and efficiently.
and muck all losing hands before pushing the pot.
In cash games when there are side pots, have those in the last side pot showdown first and have those in for the main reserve their hands until all side pots pushed.
If you dont know about dealing yourself, look up some poker dealer videos, and learn some before hiring someone.
When you do go to hire someone, give a short little interview or a chance to deal an orbit at your game and see how they do.
Cheers
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GreyPadwan
High Hand
Our home games alway have the host dealing.
All friends, and we don't like to pass the deck.
All friends, and we don't like to pass the deck.
IMHO, every player should.
Absolutely so.
IMHO, dealers in home games should be paid by the hour. It's up to the host and players to see if their mini stakes game still requires and affords the luxury of a dedicated dealere, regardless. Possible tips only upon cash-out (obviously, by winners)
Those are among the reasons a dedicated dealer is hired, indeed; good thing to remind everybody.
Pardon? Should pots be uncountable when each and every player's stack should be neat and countable?
Is messy pot counting a poker skill? Why not dim the lights in that case, to make it even harder?
Isn't the dealer obligated to count the pot for any player who asks, anyway? Why not make everybody's life easier?
Many thanks, anyway!
I host our regular, social game at my home, and my 14 year old son has dealt for us fairly regularly over the past year or so. He understands (and plays) poker very well, and is a very competent (and sarcastic) dealer. He does pretty well in tips, and is well liked by all.
10centguitar
Two Pair
Yeah mucks and pots should be messy. In split pot games dealer can pre split the pot but should always do so whether there is a low or not. Some dealers will square up their mucks early bu arent supposed to.IMHO, every player should.
Absolutely so.
IMHO, dealers in home games should be paid by the hour. It's up to the host and players to see if their mini stakes game still requires and affords the luxury of a dedicated dealere, regardless. Possible tips only upon cash-out (obviously, by winners)
Those are among the reasons a dedicated dealer is hired, indeed; good thing to remind everybody.
Pardon? Should pots be uncountable when each and every player's stack should be neat and countable?
Is messy pot counting a poker skill? Why not dim the lights in that case, to make it even harder?
Isn't the dealer obligated to count the pot for any player who asks, anyway? Why not make everybody's life easier?
Many thanks, anyway!
In Pot Limit high only games, dealers will sometimes stack the pot because they lost count.
If the game is huge (large stacks with racks and racks of chips per person), dealers will generally leave counted down barrels stacked in the middle for ease of keeping the game moving along. Likewise, dealers will leave river bets/calls/raises in front of the players unless there are side pots.
I attached a wsop pic. Shows messy pot/muck and spread remaing stub.
Most rooms (certainly not all) wont allow the dealer to tell a player whats in the pot unless its a pot limit game. Not sure what the official wsop rule is for non PL games.
Its a visual game, but that doesnt mean the dealer tells the players everything. For instance, when a player asked who raised last street i cant say, or when a player says "did he fold?" I can only say how many players are left in the hand.
Attachments
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JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
That is a risk in the US. If you start charging hourly for something related to a game, in many jurisdictions it no longer qualifies as "social gambling" and could run afoul of regulation.
Voluntary contributions are more defensible, but even that can be a gray area.
Furthermore I imagine going for tips is better for the dealers long term. In a casino, dealers get both (usually min wage for hourly and then tips.)
I believe the rule is pot counting is discouraged because it slows the game down and is only allowed in pot limit because the size of the pot has to be known to determine the max permissible wager.
Dealers don't need to make the pot messy, but it should be spread out so players can count themselves. But really if you are a good player, you know the approximate pot size in your head just by keeping track of the action.
quintooo
Flush
So for a game like NLHE, pots are kept messy only to keep action fast? Is it the dealer's responsibility to know the pot size when a player asks in a NL game?
Also question:
I want to hire a dealer as a flat rate, what's a fair price for say 4-5 hours dealing? Like 100 bucks? Reason is my games are 0.05/0.10, so tips will definitely not be much at all, but I don't mind fronting the costs of a dealer to make the game more enjoyable. My players will probably pay their share through bad poker and bringing drinks.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
My understanding is in POT LIMIT it is indeed the dealer's responsibility to count.
However in NO LIMIT the declaration of "Pot" is not a valid bet so no obligation to count.
10centguitar
Two Pair
I would say a flat rate of $100 would be more than fair for the stakes youre spreading and anywhere up to .50/1.
If the .50/1 is crazy deep and juicy then tips. A 1/2 must absolutely be in tips.
Like another member had done, i would hire a bright teen family member who could use the money. It would be good for them to learn about the game if they play, bonding, responsibility, etc.
As for a messy pot saving time, i would say so for sure, but to my knowledge, pots are specifically kept messy to make them harder to read.
The game is More fun with the added skill factor for some and acts as a catalyst for gambling in those who could care less. Big piles of chips make people do silly things).
Similar in some ways to why a dealer cant say who raised on a previous street. It Adds to the skill on one hand and guessing on the other.
Every room ive dealt only allows the pot to be spread.
Agreed that the pot should be kept messy. Even in a pot limit game, I keep the pot messy but have a mental track of the pot.
Regarding paying the dealer, it really depends on a few factors I think
I've heard many dealers say that they make more in tips at the $1/2 games than at the $5/10 games since players don't increase their tips proportionately to the stakes.
If you just want a body that's taking over dealing for the night but isn't particularly good, they you might not pay them as much. On the other hand, someone who's a veteran, or just really good could garner a much better wage/tips.
A dearer should get paid more if they're taking a rake or dealing pot limit since there's more to keep track of. Also, if they're the only dealer for a long night, that's pretty mentally draining whereas casino dealers get a break every 15-45 minutes. It's not uncommon for a home game dealer to take 1 or 2 short breaks for 6-8 hours of dealing.
I think that a dedicated dealer is usually good for a game. It will help speed up the game and have it run more smoothly as well. And if speeding up the game isn't important, it does allow the players to be more social with each other because they don't have to think about shuffling and dealing. They can focus on just having a good time.
My usual rate is at least $35/hr either flat rate, or in tips, or both. It's not unusual to end up with $50+/hr. I've had a few really good nights making over a grand a night for around 8 hours.
Oh, and I deal in comfy clothes unless it's a formal attire game where everyone's dressed up, or it's <3 hours.
Regarding paying the dealer, it really depends on a few factors I think
- Dealer's experience
- Dealer's skill and/or speed
- Your game stakes
- How hard you game is to deal
- How much you ask your dealer to do. Do they handle the bank and distribute chips? Raking?
I've heard many dealers say that they make more in tips at the $1/2 games than at the $5/10 games since players don't increase their tips proportionately to the stakes.
If you just want a body that's taking over dealing for the night but isn't particularly good, they you might not pay them as much. On the other hand, someone who's a veteran, or just really good could garner a much better wage/tips.
A dearer should get paid more if they're taking a rake or dealing pot limit since there's more to keep track of. Also, if they're the only dealer for a long night, that's pretty mentally draining whereas casino dealers get a break every 15-45 minutes. It's not uncommon for a home game dealer to take 1 or 2 short breaks for 6-8 hours of dealing.
I think that a dedicated dealer is usually good for a game. It will help speed up the game and have it run more smoothly as well. And if speeding up the game isn't important, it does allow the players to be more social with each other because they don't have to think about shuffling and dealing. They can focus on just having a good time.
My usual rate is at least $35/hr either flat rate, or in tips, or both. It's not unusual to end up with $50+/hr. I've had a few really good nights making over a grand a night for around 8 hours.
Oh, and I deal in comfy clothes unless it's a formal attire game where everyone's dressed up, or it's <3 hours.
quintooo
Flush
Is this a function of the lowest denom chip being on the table? For example the lowest chip at 1/2 is 1 while the lowest chip at 5/10 is still 1 if house is raking and throws in $1 chips for $5 chips.
If the lowest denom was $5 I'd imagine dealer tips would be a sizeable amount, unless the players just adjust and tip way less often. Though I have no experience of stakes past 2/5.
Anyways 35$/hr seems reasonable for a raked and mixed game IMO. Though, the person I'm probably gonna hire is gna be some sort of high school/college family member with no dealing experience and only NLHE, so I figure 15-20$/hr is a fair rate.
How can a dedicated dealer be a bad thing? Unless s/he is literally a bad (functionally) dealer.
10centguitar
Two Pair
Depends on the players and action i think. Obviously, bad dealers who are slow and disliked make less.
Some players tip quasi-proportional to the pot and others always tip $1 or lowest denom.
$35/hr is fair, particularly in a slower room with smaller games. All the 1/2 games ive worked in i have been able to make at least that much even on a bad night.
For a kid, $15-20 an hr is pretty awesome, I would have loved that as a teen.
As for bigger games, tips where I currently deal are usually bigger. But our room is full of maniacs that play stupid deep, and we have really fine dealers.
We have a $10/$25 OTB Big O with $500, $100, $25, $5, and $1 denoms are on the table ($1 only for drops but can be played in $5 increments )
Each pot always ends up with 3 whites in it. Smaller pots or chopped pots usually gets all the whites, but normal pots are a red and three whites.
Small, quartered pots are the worst. Might get $2.
But in bigger pots $10-$25 tips are common. Might get a black chip as a tip once a night.
Some players tip "Neapolitans" in big pots, or one of each color up to a black. So you get $131.
The room's largest single tip happened a few weeks back (one year old room). 30k pot and the kid in the box got 6 blacks...
In another room, the biggest game was a 10/25 OTB PLO that was only good for about $300 a locked-in shift. The action sucked and there were a bunch of stiffs.
Tips there sucked. The 1/2 game there tipped less but there were more hands so it was basically the same. $20-40 an hour mostly.
To me it all just depends on the players and the action.
OP
OP
Read the OP and the linked article.
As a host dealing in my home, I always keep the pot neat and countable, just as I demand players' stacks to be like that.
Online, you are offered this service (insta-count of each pot). I don't think it really is a genuine poker skill and I 'm not inviting pros anyway.
At amateur / recreational level, you risk not even passing the message through (of what your bet supposedly represents) if it can't be easily perceived as percentage of the pot.
Online, you are offered this service (insta-count of each pot). I don't think it really is a genuine poker skill and I 'm not inviting pros anyway.
At amateur / recreational level, you risk not even passing the message through (of what your bet supposedly represents) if it can't be easily perceived as percentage of the pot.
CrazyEddie
Full House
This thread began with an article about a dealer that was hired to deal a crooked game.
andy699669
3 of a Kind
@Chris Manzoni Can you explain in a form of chart how shuffle behind works? Is it the upcoming CO who shuffles the cards then the upcoming Button deals the cards?
OP
OP
The current CO shuffles. When the hand ends, the old dealer cuts and passes the shuffled deck to the new dealer on his left.
Moxie Mike
Full House
Homegames can be a shitshow. I've been to so many over the years where things like etiquette and procedure is purely optional - and it drives me insane. So IMO, a dedicated dealer adds an element of professionalism that ensures the game will be ran properly.
In the tournaments I host, every buy-in and rebuy contains a token (usually $5 or $10) for the dealer. That along with tips from those who cash make it worthwhile for the dealers. In cash games, the dealer 'rakes' $1 from every pot that goes beyond the first betting round as a tip.
In the tournaments I host, every buy-in and rebuy contains a token (usually $5 or $10) for the dealer. That along with tips from those who cash make it worthwhile for the dealers. In cash games, the dealer 'rakes' $1 from every pot that goes beyond the first betting round as a tip.
hex
Pair
Honestly if you have a dealer with 2 decks just have the button shuffle, everyone knows who shuffled and where the blinds land.
Is it though? If you have 7 players who all agree to $25 to a dealer - that's $175 plus tips for an X hour shift.
Personally, I'd gladly pay that, plus a couple bucks per winning pot to not mess with dealing.
By my choice I bought a shuffletech at the beginning of the year & became the dedicated dealer who also plays. As the host I feel it's a better experience for everyone including me. But why take my word when you can ask @Godzilla28, @quintooo, @Big Money or @Gavin?
(Go easy guys or we're playing with dice chips next time)
(Go easy guys or we're playing with dice chips next time)
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