Cutting the deck

shorticus

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Interesting thing happened in a game I was hosting yesterday. Typically when I host my games I deal the entire time and essentially run the game as a dealer. I usually give the cut card to the current dealer to have them cut the deck. Yesterday, when I handed the cut card to one of the players, she choose to place the card at the very bottom of the deck. Essentially not cutting the deck at all. At the time I thought nothing of it, but I’m wondering if there’s anything that would prevent this from happening. Just curious of everyone’s thoughts.
 

BGinGA

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Going from memory, but I think the cut (along with each strip segment during the riffle riffle strip riffle shuffle) must contain at least four cards.

And I don't hand the cut card to anybody -- it goes down on the felt, and the deck is then cut onto the card, in two separate motions, with a single hand.
 

davin

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Going from memory, but I think the cut (along with each strip segment during the riffle riffle strip riffle shuffle) must contain at least four cards.

And I don't hand the cut card to anybody -- it goes down on the felt, and the deck is then cut onto the card, in two separate motions, with a single hand.
Exactly!!! This ain’t black jack , cut card goes on surface
 

justsomedude

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I once had a dealer tell me that "anything visibly less than a third of the deck in either portion is not a valid cut." I have never found that rule printed anywhere... guessing it was just for that card-room. But I've adopted it as a house rule at my games. It keeps the jagnards from doing the old "take a handful of cards off the top" trying to be cute cut nonsense.

Edit: looks like "standard" is a fifth of the deck...

1579579746668.png
 

JMC9389

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I once had a dealer tell me that "anything visibly less than a third of the deck in either portion is not a valid cut." I have never found that rule printed anywhere... guessing it was just for that card-room. But I've adopted it as a house rule at my games. It keeps the jagnards from doing the old "take a handful of cards off the top" trying to be cute cut nonsense.

Edit: looks like "standard" is a fifth of the deck...

View attachment 395564
@dennis63 can weigh in perhaps, but I'm not sure if that rule is for blackjack only or not. Generally I'm not a stickler for cutting the deck as long as the cut card goes at least a few cards into the deck either way, but I would at least raise a brow to someone who does what the player did in the OP.
 

shorticus

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Going from memory, but I think the cut (along with each strip segment during the riffle riffle strip riffle shuffle) must contain at least four cards.

And I don't hand the cut card to anybody -- it goes down on the felt, and the deck is then cut onto the card, in two separate motions, with a single hand.
That seems to be what happens at the casino, but I prefer to let my players cut the deck. To me it eliminates any idea of them thinking that I’m cheating. Same as if someone else is dealing. In all my experiences playing poker (outside of the casino), I’ve never played a poker game where someone shuffled and cuts their own deck.
 

BGinGA

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That seems to be what happens at the casino, but I prefer to let my players cut the deck. To me it eliminates any idea of them thinking that I’m cheating. Same as if someone else is dealing. In all my experiences playing poker (outside of the casino), I’ve never played a poker game where someone shuffled and cuts their own deck.
Doesn't really matter who is dealing, or who cuts the deck -- it should always be done correctly. Teach your players and enforce the rules, same as regarding string betting, folding properly, or a dozen other procedural actions.
 

shorticus

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Doesn't really matter who is dealing, or who cuts the deck -- it should always be done correctly. Teach your players and enforce the rules, same as regarding string betting, folding properly, or a dozen other procedural actions.
100% agree with the teaching aspect, but I respectfully disagree with the “who is dealing” aspect. In a casino you have a dedicated dealer who is a neutral party dealing so one person handling the deck is acceptable. However, in a home game, the dedicated dealer is typically someone who is playing the game. To have one single person handling the deck could raise suspicion and I think simply allowing a player to place a cut card in the deck is a rather simple way potentially avoid issues.
 

BGinGA

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I think simply allowing a player to place a cut card in the deck is a rather simple way potentially avoid issues.
Sorry, but I totally disagree. There is no valid reason that a proper cut cannot be peformed prior to dealing, no matter who is doing the cut or the dealing. And it's specifically done that way to help ensure there is no deck manipulation being performed during the cut.

Proper cut procedures work perfectly fine for pass-the-deal games as well as those with a dedicated dealer. The only caveat for pass-the-deal games or player-dealer games is that the shuffler should not be the person performing the cut.
 

mrplacey

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I don't hand the cut card to anybody -- it goes down on the felt, and the deck is then cut onto the card, in two separate motions, with a single hand.
When the host deals all night, would the preferred procedure be to have each player cut the deck on their button?

EDIT: To clarify, the dealer/host is also playing.
 

FordPickup92

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Cutting the deck isn't -- and shouldn't be -- optional. Same reason that shuffling the cards isn't optional.
Hmm. Interesting, I never knew that. It is primarily our family home game that we have some non-cutters, so we've never made an issue of it. We do always shuffle behind.
 

shorticus

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Sorry, but I totally disagree. There is no valid reason that a proper cut cannot be peformed prior to dealing, no matter who is doing the cut or the dealing. And it's specifically done that way to help ensure there is no deck manipulation being performed during the cut.

Proper cut procedures work perfectly fine for pass-the-deal games as well as those with a dedicated dealer. The only caveat for pass-the-deal games or player-dealer games is that the shuffler should not be the person performing the cut.
Wait, if I’m understanding correctly, you are saying the person dealing should not be the person cutting the deck. Are we not saying the same thing, but potentially just using a different tactic?

My “cut-style” (for lack of a better term) would be similiar to blackjack. Your method is more in line with a casino, but still not being done by said dealer, correct?
 

FordPickup92

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Wait, if I’m understanding correctly, you are saying the person dealing should not be the person cutting the deck. Are we not saying the same thing, but potentially just using a different tactic?

My “cut-style” (for lack of a better term) would be similiar to blackjack. Your method is more in line with a casino, but still not being done by said dealer, correct?
Normally no the person dealing doesnt cut the deck, the way we do it is the person behind the dealer shuffles, while the next person deals, when that person's deal is over and the button moves the person that just finished dealing cuts the deck and passes it to the next dealer. If that makes sense
 

shorticus

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Normally no the person dealing doesnt cut the deck, the way we do it is the person behind the dealer shuffles, while the next person deals, when that person's deal is over and the button moves the person that just finished dealing cuts the deck and passes it to the next dealer. If that makes sense
I’ve seen that done and have been a part of it. It works when 1. Short people aren’t dealing lol and 2. Everyone understands how to deal for Texas Hold Em. 3.) Everyone wants to deal.
 

boeller

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When the host deals all night, would the preferred procedure be to have each player cut the deck on their button?

EDIT: To clarify, the dealer/host is also playing.
Thats how i am doing it in my game. I shuffle (wash riffle riffle strip riffle) and let the button cut.

If another person is present that is cappable of doing a proper shuffle, like @DerberAlter, we use 2 decks and this person (who isnt the dealer) is doing the shuffle while the hand is played and the dealer is cutting before he deals the next hand.

For me that is the best way to prevent any discussion.
 

BGinGA

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When the host deals all night, would the preferred procedure be to have each player cut the deck on their button?
Depending on your table logistics, that may be awkward. These are my preferences:
  • Dedicated non-playing dealer -- dealer cuts, regardless of who shuffles (typically the dealer, but often someone else)
  • Dedicated playing dealer -- dealer cuts, regardless of who shuffles (often the button player)
  • Rotating deal games -- dealer cuts, regardless of who shuffles (typically shuffled behind by previous dealer, or shuffled ahead by SB or BB)
The primary aspects are: 1) a proper shuffle is performed, 2) a proper cut is performed, and 3) the player doing the shuffle is not the player doing the cut.
 

BGinGA

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Wait, if I’m understanding correctly, you are saying the person dealing should not be the person cutting the deck. Are we not saying the same thing, but potentially just using a different tactic?

My “cut-style” (for lack of a better term) would be similiar to blackjack. Your method is more in line with a casino, but still not being done by said dealer, correct?
No, see above.

There is nothing wrong with the dealer cutting the deck if he/she did not shuffle it. Provided a proper shuffle and a proper cut are performed, the card order is random and no cards (including the bottom card) have been potentially seen by anyone.

A dealer cannot manipulate a random deck of unseen cards with a properly executed cut.
 

shorticus

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No, see above.

There is nothing wrong with the dealer cutting the deck if he/she did not shuffle it. Provided a proper shuffle and a proper cut are performed, the card order is random and no cards (including the bottom card) have been potentially seen by anyone.

A dealer cannot manipulate a random deck of unseen cards with a properly executed cut.
Okay, I see what you’re saying now.

On that note, I’ve never considered allowing other players to shuffle and the dedicated dealer cut. I actually never thought of that. I like that idea.
 

BGinGA

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Okay, I see what you’re saying now.

On that note, I’ve never considered allowing other players to shuffle and the dedicated dealer cut. I actually never thought of that. I like that idea.
It's also faster, especially if using two decks. :tup:

I personally like having the current BB shuffle a second deck for a dedicated dealer, since that position acts last pre-flop on the current deal and has the most available free time to shuffle before acting. The BB shuffles, sets the deck aside, and hands it to the dealer for cutting prior to dealing the next hand. I prefer that the BB keep ownership until the current hand ends, to prevent the dealer from mistakenly dealing from the wrong deck.

For tournament play purposes (blind increases), the new hand begins with the cut (instead of the first riffle of the deck, since cards are already shuffled).
 

shorticus

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It's also faster, especially if using two decks. :tup:

I personally like having the current BB shuffle a second deck for a dedicated dealer, since that position acts last pre-flop on the current deal and has the most available free time to shuffle before acting. The BB shuffles, sets the deck aside, and hands it to the dealer for cutting prior to dealing the next hand. I prefer that the BB keep ownership until the current hand ends, to prevent the dealer from mistakenly dealing from the wrong deck.

For tournament play purposes (blind increases), the new hand begins with the cut (instead of the first riffle of the deck, since cards are already shuffled).
I’m hosting another game on Friday. I’m going to try this out.
 
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