Conservatives and Progressives who are just regular people (non-politicians) (1 Viewer)

[mike32]

I have been thinking this for a long time and I guess kind of afraid to say it. I figure the off topic section here is as good a place as any to throw my thoughts out there for discussion. I have noticed back in the day at CT, here on PCF, on Facebook, with my friends and even with my own relatives including my father that there is a large and sometimes angry gap between what I will call people who feel they are progressive and people who feel they are conservative. I will point out that I consider myself fairly conservative for the sake of discussion. It seems like I frequently see people who I think consider themselves progressives pointing out not just their disagreement with, but also the stupidity of conservatives. This claim of stupidity is where I have a hard time. I really try to see all sides of an issue and I am quite sure that many progressives, including the ones on this site, are more intelligent than myself. I also strive to not belittle people whom I don't agree with. I am quite sure this is not a one-sided issue as there are PLENTY of blowhard conservatives who are more than happy to point out the stupidity of their progressive counterparts. In fact maybe I just overlook it when a conservative counterpart acts this way. All that being said I find myself more and more frequently quietly simmering inside when it is pointed out to me how dumb my views are here at PCF, on facebook, and even at home! I consider myself a work in progress and over time I have definitely become more 'liberal" on several issues, mostly social ones I suppose.

To close all this out I was wondering if anyone else from either side (you know the smart ones and the dumb ones ) agrees with this trend and if anyone else would consider stepping back and realizing that maybe the other side is not stupid, just has a different view. Thanks for reading!

 

[BukNaked36]

With the vast amount of media today, you are always able to find a group or website that agrees with your views.

This resource will then reinforce your view that you are correct, and provide statistics and talking points to help support your view.

Virtually everyone you talk to on politics is regurgitating talking points from their favorite TV host, radio host, or website.

I think it leads to a very close minded public that is more interested in spouting their talking points, than really discussing an issue.

It seems to be increasingly difficult to have a reasonable conversation on politics.

I just try to keep an open mind when watching the news and seldom engage in political discussions anymore.

 

[courage]

Can't say that I disagree with the spirit of OP post, however vague assertions and lack of examples don't further the conversation. I've not seen the "belittling" described here at PCF and am naive enough to believe most forum members mean well and have respect for one another.

 

[jbutler]

On the chance that part of the impetus was my thread here, let me say that I didn't intend to demean the intelligence of the Republican representatives involved. I only meant to repudiate the values for which they purported to advocate in the legislation at issue. If my thread had nothing to do with it, please excuse my narcissism.

Apart from the above, I do think it's partially a case of observation bias on your part. The vast majority of my friends and acquaintances who I see and hang out with regularly would describe themselves as conservatives or Republicans and I hear some of the most demeaning things you can imagine about liberals and Democrats. On the other hand, my wife's friends are nearly exclusively liberal and she often feels very taken aback when she sees polls that represent a more divided populous. Anyone who thinks either side is not guilty of the type of denigration complained of in the OP, turn on both Rush Limbaugh and Ed Schultz at the same time.

As you would imagine, I am not at all "in the closet" as to my far left positions and beliefs, so we talk about it fairly often. As you might not imagine, with one single exception it has been lighthearted and friendly even when we almost inevitably disagree. The one exception was when a guy I had never met decided to jump into a semi-joking conversation about Trump to tell me and the one other left-leaning person present that the country was going to shit and it was going to be our fault. We immediately pulled back on the conversation so as to not allow it to get any more hostile. But as a point of reference, the "hostile" Trump guy is retired from Goldman and very bright. So even there I wouldn't criticize his intelligence, just his judgment.

To make the obvious point, I think the media is what gives people the impression that the rhetoric is more extreme and, therefore, actually causes it to become so. It's also partially the snarky nature of the internet. But more broadly, I think the decline in the quality of public intellectuals is a true tragedy and shame. I could hardly disagree with him more, but William F. Buckley Jr.'s Firing Line represents almost a serene tone compared to what passes today as debate and analysis and yet it would be laughed off the air now. Even Meet the Press, which was the closest the mainstream media came to real analysis now more closely resembles Good Morning America. It's a fucking joke.

The first several years of my political education came at a time when I considered myself a conservative if not a Republican and so I read many conservative intellectual heavyweights. I still consider many of them to be brilliant even if I no longer agree with their conclusions. Unfortunately, there are simply many, many fewer opportunities for our society to cultivate the types of thinkers I was reading at that time. Then, they were almost exclusively in academia. Now, the vast majority of political "intellectuals" are media figures or associated with think tanks who may hold an honorary academic position from time to time, but typically focus on PR for their cause/party/candidate. This is primarily due to the denigration of the academy as a worthwhile pursuit and the loss in funding for higher (and all) education and faculty salaries.

Anyway, I'm blathering as usual, but I will cosign with OP on the idea that no ideology has the monopoly on intelligence. Unfortunately for the right, they aren't doing themselves any favors these days with regard to their public perception and their more vocal representatives.

 

[DrStrange]

Sometimes people use "stupid" when we mean "ignorant". It can be very hard to tell the two apart when dealing with strangers or public figures.

People of strong political persuasion can fall prey to ignorance (or stupidity). Progressives are as prone to these faults as Conservatives. The core problem is a) few people do their homework and b) even when confronted with contrary data/evidence they are unable or unwilling to reconsider their possitions. Thus we end up seeing people who disagree with us as "stupid" - we offer up what is evidence to us and they don't appear to understand it.

Ignorant people have trouble realizing they are ignorant. The less they know, the more certain they are of their knowledge. "The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which relatively unskilled persons suffer illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their own ineptitude and evaluate their own ability accurately." (Wikapedia)

As I see it, people are becoming ever more specialized in narrow areas of interests and becoming less informed in a broad sense. But they don't believe that, they see themselves as worldly and competent. Compounding this are media offerings that are misleading or objectively false that take an ignorant person and disinform them.

Strategic disinformation is not a two sided problem. Conservative disinformation is more prevalent than progressive disinformation. Pity the poor conservative who's primary data source is talk radio and Fox News. They are a lot worse off than the progressive who consumes NPR, The New York Times and MSNBC. (I have standing to offer this opinion because I consume all of these media sources and commonly take strange sounding things to do my own research.) One of the most pressing examples of this is happens when we discuss climate change - the levels of ignorance and misinformation is not equally shared between political poles.

I am an equal opportunity shamer when it comes to ignorance. If someone offers a point of view, I'll offer my alternative and offer data and logic to back it up. I try to treat this like I would in a strategy post - assault the ideas but not make it personal with the people offering alternative points of view. I might not call you stupid, but I can understand why the discussion can be uncomfortable.

I spent a decade selling consulting services that could be boiled down to, gather good data and use it to make viable decisions. I can't say how many times some company would pay me $2,000 to spend a day with their leadership and in the end the whole thing boiled down to a) no one knew what they were talking about, b) no one had solid data, just fragments that supported their opinions and c) each side talked past each other. So I get paid to listen to the blathering arguments, point out that no one knows what the truth is and then get paid to ask lower level employees to gather the data which I then present to leadership.

DrStrange

 

[dennis63]

I think people are liberal or conservative based on their own personal life experiences.What is lacking these days is the mutual respect that once was very common. In today's times, intolerance on both sides of the political fence is sought and celebrated. Neither side understands the other, and it's just easier to pronounce the opposition as wrong, ignorant or worse. Today, the louder you are (about anything), the more points you get.

My closest friend is very, very liberal. He went from the Main Line outside of Philadelphia to college at two great universities, got his doctorate and joined the top ranks of the corporate world. Of course he believes everyone is intelligent, educated and reasonable, and that the people of other cultures have respect for America. (Those are really the only people he has ever actually met.) Therefore, most actions of the government are, in his mind, unnecessary and paranoid and suspect. He thinks most conservatives are to be feared.

Recently, we were talking about refugees in Europe. He noted that Germany has accepted so many refugees that they risk losing their German culture as it is supplanted by something new and more Middle Eastern. They are not happy. He said he believes they have a right to preserve their cultural heritage, and resist losing everything they know to be their world -- their land, their language, their politics, their activities, their beliefs, their way of life.

That's when I said, "Well, now you know how conservatives in America feel."

There was a long silence. He said he finally understood conservatives. He now believes he has heard the best explanation of why anyone would -- or must -- be a conservative. Conservatives don't want to trample the beliefs of others, but they don't want their own believes trampled. (No, I'm not talking about the politicians on both sides -- just the regular people, like the OP says.)

It would be absurd for me to "hate" my friend because he believes differently than I do. I respect him because of it.

 

[Psypher1000]

Firstly, @mike32 , good discussion topic. I'm glad you felt strongly enough to voice your opinion.

In the interest of full disclosure, for whatever it's worth, I'm a Christian who attends a relatively conservative church, but I tend to lean left politically. In short, I have few friends.

I think there's a few things at play. @jbutler discusses many of them. The two biggest to my thinking, however, are...

It's also partially the snarky nature of the internet.

and...

I think the decline in the quality of public intellectuals is a true tragedy and shame.

Regarding the first point, the internet will frequently provide a reflection of someone's fortitude that's much larger than it actually is. In other words, folks tend to have more balls on the net than they do in real life. I think we have a relatively intelligent crowd here, so I'm not specifically referring to PCF, but on Facebook, blogs, and the internet at large, I think people will be more damning and fundamentalist than they would be in face-to-face discourse. On the flipside of that, I think many times our brains interpret messages we read on the internet in a more attacking tone than what is actually there, or at least moreso than the author intended. We lose out on the vocal inflection and facial clues on the internet that would otherwise help us to properly interpret someone's message. I know I've frequently fallen victim to that habit, and I don't imagine I'm unique in that regard. In short, I'm not saying you're wrong - conservatives do indeed get belittled by progressives (also, the opposite) - but simply that I suspect many times the messages we perceive as being an affront to our beliefs or our person are either to be taken with a grain of salt, or were probably never intended to be as vitriolic as we sometimes interpret them.

On the latter...well, yes.

Our ability to have a civil, informed discussion/debate on a national level seems to have been flushed down the toilet sometime in the past 50 years. And if we're not meeting in the middle, we're relegated to voices like Sean Hannity, Ed Schultz, and others who seem more interested in furthering their ratings than furthering the discussion. Much of the pop/modern media tends to be biased against you because they target the 18-45 crowd. Since most folks tend to lean left when they're younger, that's what gets trumpeted. That's what gets conveyed in tv, movies, and music. That's what you see on ESPN and Disney. The only place you don't see many of those messages is within the Fox realm, because they want the older, white establishment $. I personally think the media companies don't give two shits about domestic or foreign policy - neither NewsCorp or Disney or anyone else (I think individual journalists and pundits sometimes do...just not the companies that hire them). They just want what generates dollars for them, and that tends to be extremism, sensationalism, and bias. Thus, our talking heads and recognizable personalities are born. Never mind the candidates themselves, all of which have a reason to be scrutinized or mocked by one side or the other. The closest thing I can recall in the last 4-5 years to a reasonable discussion in pop media on real issues was the "debate" between Bill O'Reily and Jon Stewart - a self-serving blowhard and a comedian. Fortunately they're both hobbits of some intelligence. Even though it was for show, and even though it was for charity, it still generated more reasonable political/social discussion within two hours than I've seen in the entirety of my adult life. And that's sad.

I don't think you're seeing things or imagining things, Mike. I think you're feeling attacked, and some of those attacks are real. I think many of the public figures who claim to hold to the same beliefs as you say and do things that make you guilty by association and/or an easier/justifiable target in your attackers eyes. Basically, the conservative candidates and officials by their actions have made you an outlet of others frustrations. I also suspect there's far too much groupthink going on in the country and not enough actual thought, and the media doesn't want actual thought because it's boring...so instead we get hours-full of slings and arrows and Kardashians and Jenners.

 

[mike32]

Thanks for the replies everybody, I love PCF so I was sure this would be the best place for me to post such a topic. I was right! @courage I did not give specific examples because they are certainly not all from here (ie family) and I don't want to call anyone out here. @jbutler I did try to say that I know conservatives are guilty of this crime also in the OP but I certainly could have some bias. It's so hard to type what I really want to say on a message board but I was trying to convey my observations on regular people, not the Rush's and Ed Schultz's of the world. I'm talking about you and me on here, on facebook, at work and in my own home.

Also @DrStrange I've noticed almost every view I have changed in my life was because I overcame my own ignorance. I still have work to do however.

 

[jbutler]

@jbutler I did try to say that I know conservatives are guilty of this crime also in the OP but I certainly could have some bias. It's so hard to type what I really want to say on a message board but I was trying to convey my observations on regular people, not the Rush's and Ed Schultz's of the world. I'm talking about you and me on here, on facebook, at work and in my own home.

Gotcha. Totally fair. As one data point, I will say as I did above that I hear quite horrible things about libs/Dems from my conservative friends and, to be fair, plenty of condescension toward conservatives from my liberal friends as well. At least in my own experience, it's quite balanced in that way.

 

[ChaosRock]

@mike32 : Thank you so much for speaking your mind my friend!! Very, very courageous of you... And for whatever's worth, your observations have been mine as well ...

I wrote about 4 or 5 responses to your post but I found impossible to analyze the issue without delving deeply into the leftist ideology and its historic background so I decided to delete all of my 'essays', LOL!! Last thing I want is to shift the focus to a left vs. right discussion but I think that would have been inevitable...

See you Saturday brother!

 

[BiGGyT]

This was a good discussion, I enjoy when people can be reasonable and discuss why they disagree or admit that someone on their "side" is over the top. What bothers me the most is when one side shouts down the other side, or just insults them to rally their base. I like to think I am a conservative and don't care about the names I am called or how "ignorant" I am as I am in a time in my life where I do not need to please everyone, and some things are beyond my daily world. I do not wish bad things upon anyone, unless they are trying to literally kill me or other innocents, then I would use all force available to end the threat. I don't want war or death, I don't want starving kids or drug attics, I don't like violent people of any type, but because I believe I am "conservative" in how I think these topic should be addressed, I am "killing old people" and "keeping minorities down" and every other foul thing someone throws out there. If I try to defend myself by saying, no, I am not killing grandma because I want to change how social security is calculated 20 years from now for people retiring in 20 years, but by that time, I am killing grandma in everyone's eyes and once branded as a bad guy, you are the bad guy and lose the public opinion argument. This is why I just don't care what you call me, because defending against it just makes the point that I probably am killing grandma to the audience. I honestly hope it is not Trump who gets the nomination, as he is the first to throw this type of insult attack which I deplore, and probably is why the national poles seem to show him losing to Clinton or Sanders because enough "conservative" people like me don't think he is worthy of the Presidency.

Progressives brought us prohibition, stock up the liquor cabinet when the Dems win before January 2017.

 

[Leonard]

The internet and the cable news industry is certainly serving to drive a wedge between conservative and liberal political views.
Before Fox vs CNN/MSNBC gave conservatives and liberals each their own news source, most people were exposed to multiple viewpoints by their news sources. Yes, conservatives claimed the news had a liberal bias, but network news and most newspapers (in the very old days) at least pretended to be impartial. Now we have an unending stream of our own viewpoint to watch over and over again. Confirmation bias.
When you watch these biased news sources, they provide you with poorly constructed versions of the opposing viewpoint that are easily torn apart. This leads to disdain for those with different viewpoints. Straw man.
More bothersome is the willful disregard shown on both sides for actual evidence that contradicts their talking points. Witness GMO fear and anti-vaxxers on the Left and climate change deniers on the Right. Of course, with the way both sides play fast and loose with facts, it is often hard to know what is actual evidence and what is fiction.

There are fewer and fewer moderates in the country and the trend doesn't seem to be slowing.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Part of the problem, in my experience, is the 2 party system breeds a lot of people who are just rooting for the team they've been taught to support, or been persuaded to support, without ever really critically thinking on their own.

I know my evidence is only anecdotal, but I know a lot of people who will answer questions about their actual beliefs honestly, and not even recognize that these beliefs are in opposition to their political allegiances. This ranges from Older HS grads who work manual labor to people with multiple graduate degrees.

I believe critical thinking in the general population is very low. That's why I like communities like PCF. People here seem to be able to think in greater number than the general population.

I'm gonna toot my own horn for a second. I have a high IQ, an earned doctorate, and I make a LOT of money by most standards. I am surrounded by PhDs at work, and know many of them from grad school and in my field in general. I'm constantly surprised by how stupid many of these people are. By stupid, I mean the kind of people incapable of independent critical thought. Intellectually lazy. And I mean this in a general sense, not just politically. If these people can't think for themselves, what about the half of the population with below average intelligence? How many of them are capable?

Being able to strongly hold beliefs and ideas, and then change them in the face of evidence is rare in my experience. Being able to actually evaluate evidence to base opinions on also seems rare. And being capable of self awareness, introspection, and self criticism is seemingly more rare. How are we ever going to have meaningful exchanges of ideas?

It's like Dr. Strange's clients. We all just talk past each other. Except even if we (as a nation) were brought real data, the complexities of the issues are such that few could even asses it even if they were inclined.

TL;DR - people are stupid. We're fucked.

 

[slisk250]

I'm not sure what I am anymore. I do not belong to any political party as none share a majority of my values. I'm probably more of a libertarian but I'm not up on the issues any more. I just barely started reading about Flint's water disaster! Being away from the US propaganda machine for 10 years now is a double edged sword. I can easily remove myself from the vicious attacks on people in the press at the cost of being uninformed. When I go home I can't really participate in the dialogue. That's Ok for me because I learned I don't have a deep need to win the fight. I used to but I was changed forever when I was an elected exec board member of the Scottsdale Education Association. We were fighting a losing battle to convince the largely republican run state and local school board that funding public education was perhaps more important than any other issue. It was a waste of my time. I learned that people who believe they are right (and are in positions of power) cannot be influenced. They don't listen. Convincing them that they needed to fund public ed was about as likely as them sharing my belief that organized religion is complete bullshit. Note that I'm still open to the possibility that there is a god. I don't need to win that fight either. I'm happy to have many church going friends, we just never get into the debate of god vs organized religion.

When religion can become a central driving force in a political party's decision making, there is little hope for anyone who values critical thought and decision making based on science. Chicken Rob pretty much wrote my response for me.

 

[jbutler]

The absolute impotence of this open letter from Republican national security experts is a good indicator of the damage done by a political economy that clings more to media figures than policy analysts. If this had come out in 1992, the leading candidates would have been challenged to substantively rebut its claims. Now, since Sean Hannity and Michael Savage aren't co-signers, it will be nothing but a superficial headline. Maybe Mitt Romney's speech today will wake some people up. I hope so.

This is certainly not a problem unique to the Republican party. The left's intellectuals have similar trouble making their voices heard over Rachel Maddow, et al., but the Republican party has done a unique job of demeaning "experts" and acting as if they have nothing to offer.

 

[Anthony Martino]

What I find discouraging in political "discussions" are the constant name-calling right off the bat. Libtards, neo-cons, etc. When you're using name-calling you're showing you have no interest in a mutual understanding, only that you feel your views are superior and correct and you demonize the other side in an effort to devalue their views.

I grew up in poverty, on a family that subsisted on Welfare and Veterans Benefits to get by, so initially I had an extremely liberal and Democratic point of view of the world.

As I grew up and experienced life on my own, I realized a lot of the problems my parents went through were of their own doing, their own failures.

I don't like the party system at all, I feel all it does is create divisional lines that separate people, rather than encouraging them to come together. I lean socially liberal (believe in a womans right to choose, gay rights, etc) and fiscally conservative (I oppose large, bloated, wasteful government, its intrusion and corruption as it grows, etc)

A lot of people tell me they'd classify me as Libertarian, but again, I don't like labels that divide.

I firmly believe that our government and media are corporation controlled, and that they desire to keep us divided against one another over religious, socio-economic and ideological differences. They want liberals vs conservatives, middle class vs lower class, whites vs minorities, etc.

It's good for their bottom line, because while we struggle against one another and shout each other down, they continue to twist the system to their benefit, and feed us news stories designed with bias to elicit strong reactions for or against specific demographics.

What I find even scarier is that a lot of our populace just believes whatever garbage their fed by the media, that supports their own belief system. People are constantly sharing pictures and stories that are outright false or twisted/edited in a manner to demonize people (there was one where a black protester was holding a sign and someone photoshopped the words on the sign to read that he had a right to rob stores without being shot by the cops, or something along those lines) and too many people believed the sign really said that.

Likewise, as soon as someone is ACCUSED of a crime in a news story, people immediately jump in with comments about how that person should be executed or castrated, not given a trial, etc. People just ASSUME someone is guilty based on either the horrific nature of the crime, the type of crime and their appearance or ethnicity, etc, and want do remove due process.

I have little faith in humanity at this point in life. Hopefully the lizard people Illuminati controlling everything have a better future in store for us.