Tourney Colo(u)ring Up (1 Viewer)

[Wils]

Hi folks

I follow the blinds progression of 2,3,5,7,for my tourney games (i.e. first level small blind is 2x the smallest chip, second level small blind is 3x the smallest chip, fifth is 2x the next smallest chip etc etc).

This means the smallest value chip becomes obsolete every fifth level (the smallest chip is now smaller than the small blind).

Question: would you colour up every fifth level (assuming blinds increase every 15 minutes, for example), or would this be too much faffing about?

Real world example - playing with 1, 5, 25 and 100 denoms, would you colour up the 1's, then the 5's, or would you just colour up the 1's and 5's together (I'm thinking of larger games here)...

In the past my games have been relatively shortstacked so colouring up hasn't been necessary.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Blaster]

Hi folks

I follow the blinds progression of 2,3,5,7,for my tourney games (i.e. first level small blind is 2x the smallest chip, second level small blind is 3x the smallest chip, fifth is 2x the next smallest chip etc etc)..

Not sure I get that .. if your smallest chip is a 25, that seems to imply the 1st 2 blind levels of
50/100 jumps to
150/300 ??

 

[Wils]

I SHOULD CLARIFY! Where the next highest chip is 5x the last one (i.e. 1 then 5), it's 2,3,5,7. Where it's 4x (i.e. 25 then 100), it's 2,3,4,6...

Lets say the smallest chip is 25, then 100, then 500


level 1: 50/100
level 2: 75/150
level 3: 100/200
level 4: 150/300
level 5: 200/400 (25 chip is now redundant)
level 6: 300/600
level 7: 500/1000
level 8: 700/1400
level 9: 1000/2000 (100 chip is now redundant)
level 10: 1500/3000 etc etc etc

 

[moose]

I colour up on the first break after the chip becomes obsolete.

 

[justsomedude]

I colour up on the first break after the chip becomes obsolete.

^^^ This.

Here's my structure and color up schedule...

 

[BGinGA]

Any advice would be appreciated.

Chips that are no longer needed by the blind structure should be removed from play. Keeping them in play only serves to slow down the game.

I SHOULD CLARIFY! Where the next highest chip is 5x the last one (i.e. 1 then 5), it's 2,3,5,7. Where it's 4x (i.e. 25 then 100), it's 2,3,4,6...

Lets say the smallest chip is 25, then 100, then 500

level 1: 50/100
level 2: 75/150
level 3: 100/200
level 4: 150/300
level 5: 200/400 (25 chip is now redundant)
level 6: 300/600
level 7: 500/1000
level 8: 700/1400
level 9: 1000/2000 (100 chip is now redundant)
level 10: 1500/3000 etc etc etc

^^ That structure does not follow your stated rules. According to the above, it would be:
level 1: 50/100 (2x 25)
level 2: 75/150 (3x)
level 3: 125/250 (5x)
level 4: 175/350 (7x)
level 5: 200/400 (2x 100) ** this increase is too small
level 6: 300/600 (3x)
level 7: 400/800 (4x)
level 8: 600/1200 (6x)
level 9: 1000/2000 (2x 500) ** this increase is too large
level 10: 1500/3000 (3x)

I don't like your method, because increasing the blinds from one level to the next has nothing to do with the size of the smallest chip in play, and everything to do with the size of the last blind level. In fact, I've just created several different schedules using your method, and to be brutally honest, they're all pretty fucked up. Either the range of blind increases is too wide (14% to 67%), or the increases aren't uniformly consistent (it generates 40%-67% increases for several levels, then drops to 33%-50% increases for several levels, then jumps back up to 67%). And what do you do when the denomination increase is only 2x (500 to 1000, for example)?

In addition, the blind amounts at several levels are a little funky and non-standard, and some increases are way too low (only 14%). This problem stems from your chip denominations not being equally spaced apart (i.e., it would be fine if using either T1-T5-T25-T125 chips, or T1-T4-T16-T64 chips). But in general, trying to use a fixed progression when your chip denominations are not also fixed in the same relative progression will produce undesired results.

You'd be much better off just using 2x-3x-4x-6x all the time, but even that can be greatly improved upon. Using 2-3-4-6-8 (and dropping the 8 when encountering a 4x denom increase) is much smoother. Or just use a spreadsheet that shows the percentage increase from level to level, and try to maintain consistency within a relatively narrow range.

 

[BGinGA]

Here's my structure and color up schedule...

View attachment 52254

Very nice. (y) :thumbsup:

 

[DJ Mack]

Not much more to add to this one ... I color up when the smallest chip becomes obsolete, and I structure my blinds such that this will happen at break time. @BGinGA has it right - there's just a small number of structures that work well. They just need to be tweaked to suit your starting stacks and chip set. No need to get fancy and try to reinvent the wheel. When I was preparing for my first tourney I did a lot of this trying to come up with a custom structure. The more I played with it the more problems developed in other areas so I chucked it all and went with a standard arrangement.

Now that I know my stacks about the only thing I need to worry about is the level times so as to get things to end about when I want them to.

 

[Wils]

Chips that are no longer needed by the blind structure should be removed from play. Keeping them in play only serves to slow down the game.



^^ That structure does not follow your stated rules. According to the above, it would be:
level 1: 50/100 (2x 25)
level 2: 75/150 (3x)
level 3: 125/250 (5x)
level 4: 175/350 (7x)
level 5: 200/400 (2x 100) ** this increase is too small
level 6: 300/600 (3x)
level 7: 400/800 (4x)
level 8: 600/1200 (6x)
level 9: 1000/2000 (2x 500) ** this increase is too large
level 10: 1500/3000 (3x)

I don't like your method, because increasing the blinds from one level to the next has nothing to do with the size of the smallest chip in play, and everything to do with the size of the last blind level. In fact, I've just created several different schedules using your method, and to be brutally honest, they're all pretty fucked up. Either the range of blind increases is too wide (14% to 67%), or the increases aren't uniformly consistent (it generates 40%-67% increases for several levels, then drops to 33%-50% increases for several levels, then jumps back up to 67%). And what do you do when the denomination increase is only 2x (500 to 1000, for example)?

In addition, the blind amounts at several levels are a little funky and non-standard, and some increases are way too low (only 14%). This problem stems from your chip denominations not being equally spaced apart (i.e., it would be fine if using either T1-T5-T25-T125 chips, or T1-T4-T16-T64 chips). But in general, trying to use a fixed progression when your chip denominations are not also fixed in the same relative progression will produce undesired results.

You'd be much better off just using 2x-3x-4x-6x all the time, but even that can be greatly improved upon. Using 2-3-4-6-8 (and dropping the 8 when encountering a 4x denom increase) is much smoother. Or just use a spreadsheet that shows the percentage increase from level to level, and try to maintain consistency within a relatively narrow range.

Re the stated rules - 25 to 100 follows the 2,3,4,6 progression, 100 to 500 would follow the 2,3,5,7 progression. Regarding the 500 to 1000 increase, you'd simply use common sense and cut out a couple of the multipliers eg

500 x2: 1000/2000
500 x3: 1500/3000 then move onto the 1000 "bracket"
1000 x2: 2000/4000
1000 x3: 3000/6000
1000 x5: 5000/10000
1000 x7: 7000/14000
5000 x2: 10000/20000
and so on and so on.


I think I first saw this progression on CT, and it's proved useful. I think the original did just use 2,3,4,6, but the jumps were more noticeable. I'll have a play around with your 2-3-4-6-8 suggestion and see where it takes me.

Regardless, I'm really more concerned with the colouring up side of things, so apologies for the lack of detail in the blind structure - on reflection I should have left that out of the equation.

To avoid thread derailling I should have just asked "Do you color up when the smallest chip is obsolete, or wait until the break and color up all the obsolete chips (if they're not at the same time).

 

[DJ Mack]

If they don't occur at the same time then wait. Guys get cranky as time is wasted doing things other than playing while the round timer marches towards the next blinds increase. Short of a house fire I don't stop the round timer for anything. Guys also get cranky when things are on a roll and the cadence is broken.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I run a plethora of blind structures, tailored to the individual chipset. Most are set up so that when a chip becomes obsolete, there's also a break. One structure allows an obsolete chip to remain on the table until break rolls around, at which point I color up.

That said, my group is very casual, and we take a break every hour so there's never a long wait for a break or a chance to color up.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Does anyone know why the WSOP uses a lot of small denomination chips (in relation to the blinds) instead of using the correct denominations?

 

[Wils]

Does anyone know why the WSOP uses a lot of small denomination chips (in relation to the blinds) instead of using the correct denominations?

Just a guess, but I'd imagine small denominations equals lots of chips equals "looks good on TV"

 

[Adam Crowley]

This was my best guess as well.

 

[Poker Zombie]

It's the antes. As long as the low denom chip is still in play for antes, they leave them on the table. When you have a couple thousand people with 8 of the lowest denom chip, and you knock 95% of them out, you wind up with a shitload of chips.

I don't believe it's intentional.

 

[Chicken Rob]

They should give everyone 10k in T25 chips and never color up. The stacks would be mountainous.

4 racks each to start. More for deeper tournaments.

 

[Wils]

They should give everyone 10k in T25 chips and never color up. The stacks would be mountainous.

4 racks each to start. More for deeper tournaments.

Player A: I'm all in.

Player B: Err... Can I have a count?

Everyone else: Oh for fuck's sake

 

[Chicken Rob]

I used to play in a tourney like this. All chips were worth 1 unit regardless of color. As it got shorter, chips were racked for convenience. The players liked this more than using denominations.

Later rounds I bet 350. Slide out 3 racks and 2.5 stacks. Racked chips pushed to the center of the table.

It wasn't too bad, since they were dice chips and stacked poorly anyway. Fortunately I helped the group migrate to both cash games and better chips.

 

[BGinGA]

holy mother of god ..... although using racks was probably tons better than trying to push 350 slippery chips into the pot.

 

[DJ Mack]

although using racks was probably tons better than trying to push 350 slippery chips into the pot.

I'm all about Moar Chips too, but there comes a point...

 

[TexRex]

We generally color up when the lowest denom is no longer needed, but if that happens one round before a scheduled break, we might wait to do the color up at the break. Our lowest chip is 25. When the blinds are 100-200, for a player to bet 425 is odd, but seemingly legal unless you have a rule requiring bets to be in even multiples of the lowest chip in play.

 

[Trihonda]

I colour up on the first break after the chip becomes obsolete.

This is pretty much it. When you don't need the chip, get rid of it.

Color ups are easy. Just tell folks at the tables to sell off all their lowest denom to the big stack (except the couple extra they might have). Then you only really have to deal with one person at each table. You can make it even easier by advising that big stack to group the chips into X amounts, for easy counting.

 

[Mr Tree]

+1 for scheduling breaks when chips become obsolete.

Having someone buy chips up makes sense and is how most casinos do it. Generally in my games I just have the racks ready for chip ups and handle it myself during breaks.

There also becomes the question of how to handle extra chips. You can always do a race off. I round up. So if you have 4 x T100s when we color up the 100s I will give you a T500.

Keeping chips on the table after they cease to be useful just slows down play IMO.