Change Chip Quantity (1 Viewer)

[jdub]

Judging by replies to my recent post and other posts on chip breakdown, one should set the quantity of the change chips (small blind denom) in a starting stack according to the equation:

denomination of workhorse chip divided by the denomination of the change chip multiplied by 2.​

If your workhorse is $25 trillion and your change chip is $5 trillion then the quantity of change chips in a starting stack should be 10. (Hey, the government gambles with these stakes!)

One PCFer even economized by only giving a few players any change chips at all. I can extend that idea to a policy that no change chips be given during a re-buy.

This is vastly different than 500 piece dice chip sets which include too beaucoup white chips. Is the dice chipset breakdown just dumb?

Is that multiplier of 2 a sensible number? Is x1 better. Is x3 better?

Given what I have read on PCF, there is a lot of bad advice on chip breakdown out there, probably because the people giving the advice were selling chips.

 

[Rieguy]

Wat? Just state your relative buy-in, blinds, and typical number of players and people will be happy to recommend a solid set breakdown. Starting stacks are mostly irrelevant; you should just tailor those to your game and its play-style after some trial and error, although you can use suggestions as a framework.

Given what I have read on PCF, there is a lot of bad advice on chip breakdown out there, probably because the people giving the advice were selling chips.

This is possible but I wouldn't start off assuming advice is coming from a person with ill intent.

 

[mipevi]

I prefer to have 3x or even 4x, but my game is short-handed, uses the same size sb as bb instead of half bb, and play is pretty passive. 2x might work well for a different game. 1x would suck pretty much always.

 

[Eriks]

Judging by replies to my recent post and other posts on chip breakdown, one should set the quantity of the change chips (small blind denom) in a starting stack according to the equation:

denomination of workhorse chip divided by the denomination of the change chip multiplied by 2.​

If your workhorse is $25 trillion and your change chip is $5 trillion then the quantity of change chips in a starting stack should be 10. (Hey, the government gambles with these stakes!)

One PCFer even economized by only giving a few players any change chips at all. I can extend that idea to a policy that no change chips be given during a re-buy.

This is vastly different than 500 piece dice chip sets which include too beaucoup white chips. Is the dice chipset breakdown just dumb?

Is that multiplier of 2 a sensible number? Is x1 better. Is x3 better?

Given what I have read on PCF, there is a lot of bad advice on chip breakdown out there, probably because the people giving the advice were selling chips.

 

[jdub]

Wat? Just state your relative buy-in, blinds, and typical number of players and people will be happy to recommend a solid set breakdown. Starting stacks are mostly irrelevant; you should just tailor those to your game and its play-style after some trial and error, although you can use suggestions as a framework.

This is possible but I wouldn't start off assuming advice is coming from a person with ill intent.

Woops. By "OUT THERE" I mean on the rest of the internet. Not on PCF. Mea culpa.

I don't just want the fish. I want to learn how to fish. I see the recommendations. I am trying to dig into the why.

 

[jdub]

View attachment 960946

Close, but I keep a clean shave.

 

[glynn]

I like to get the low chips out early. Then the game doesn't need to stop at the end of each betting round to find and make change. Plus, tall stacks have a psychological effect that influences the tone for the night. Latecomers and re-buyers can quickly buy large chips from the bank to then sell to other players for smaller chips.

I asked players at my games to trust me on this one time, and now they wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[FDLmold]

Is the dice chipset breakdown just dumb?

Yes. Almost every factory-chosen chipset breakdown I've ever seen is dumb, and that includes Paulson sets.

 

[Taghkanic]

Big box store plastic chipsets are irrelevant. No one advocates for any starting stack sizes here just to sell chips. (I mean, it’s silly, plus the small denoms are typicallly the cheapest.)

ANYWAY: The main thing is to have plenty of your workhorse chip (in a 1/2 game, that’s the 5s). But minimizing the lowest denom doesn’t really do much except increase the amount of gametime wasted on making change.

For my cash game, I typically give everyone a half or full barrel of the lowest denom on their first buy-in. That makes the stacks feel fuller while minimizing change-making.

After that, rebuys get dished out with workhorse and higher denoms, unless someone specifically asks for a specific mix. They can get smaller change if they want it from a big stack.

 

[Ben8257]

Wow, what an OP!

Come in asking question but being a a** about it... great way to make friends on the internet bro.

How did people figure out how many is perfect? Hours and hours and hours, poker session after poker session.

Too many chips can slow down the play for counting out all in sized bets, too few chips can lead to too much change making. It is about finding the balance between the two. Sure you can follow a general consensus and there are many threads about that here on the forum.

I guess a multiplier can be a decent guide line, but really over and over we hear the same questions... hoe many chips do I need? You get 10 different answers based off of different peoples opinions, some based off of what works for their games, some based off of the (often crappy) information given by the member asking.

Take in all of that advice and figure out what you think will work for you, go heavy if you can afford it. Again trial and error on your own works, a lot of people appreciate the help. I really don't consider there to be "bad advice" if you are looking for the absolute perfect chip breakdown equation... there are those here that claim they have it and I disagree as again all games are different and play different. People saying "1 rack of X is all you need because it works for my game!" Doesn't mean it's true.

I am personally happy to do a personal breakdown for anyone if they tell me the info about their game

1) total players (including potential future expansion)
2) stakes ($.05/$.10, $.25/$.50, $1/$2 or higher)
3) planned # of rebuys (typically we base these off of a minimum of 3 rebuys per player and other that is more than enough)
4) soft/ hard game (level of general experience for the group) veteran players are better with making change and can get buy with less and still keep the game moving, beginner level we would want more low denoms to try and limit change making, also likely going to have a lot more limping bets)

Again no magical equations that are absolutely perfect for every situations (the multiplier makes sense... but as we see even that has its question marks)

My breakdowns will be in the realm of "correct" for your game, but good luck on that perfect breakdown calculation...

I just checked and saw you are trying to keep it at a 500 chip breakdown, it can be done but most veterans agree that 600 is optimal for a small cash set. Looks like you are trying to keep it under $.50 per chip, so an extra rack (600 instead of 500) is only adding a max of $50, the peace of mind knowing you have enough chips is worth that to most.

Shoot me a PM or heck answer the above questions here, I'm not trying to sell you any chips, but happy to help in getting you on the right track and happy to explain my breakdowns and why.

Fellow Chipper Ben

 

[jpike16]

I run a $1/2 game with a $200 max buy in. Usually we have anywhere from 6-9 players on a given night. The breakdown I use for 1st buy-in is always $1- 10, $5- 38 (assuming max buy-in). I've even went $1- 10, $5- 18, $25- 4. Both breakdowns work well for us... rebuys are always given in $25's

 

[bergs]

One thing for sure - playing a cash game (not tourney) where you get like 13 chips for your buyin sucks. I always recommend that you’re able to give players at least a full 20 chip stack of the blind chips and the workhorse chip (assuming their buyin was sufficiently large).

Standard buyin for my 25/50 game was always $100 or $125 and I’d hand out 20 quarters (could get away with fewer the way the game played), 20 $1 and 15-20 $5s.

Nobody wants to play cash with just a few chips. Just feels shitty.

 

[LeLe]

The breakdown that is most effective and efficient are

100 x blind chip
200 x workhorse chip
200 x secondary workhorse chip
100 or 80/20 x Big value chip

If you are doing 500 chip you can either 200/100 workhorse or 150/150 workhorse

You will get like around 30+ chips for starting stake with enough blind and workhorse chip to go

I understand some people like to get monster stack (like 50-100 chips for 100bb) by having too many blinds chip but it’s their game they can do what they like with their set.

As long as they don’t go around suggesting it to new player who asking for breakdown, that shouldn’t be a problem

 

[Ben8257]

I understand some people like to get monster stack (like 50-100) by having too many blinds chip but it’s their game they can do what they like with their set.

As long as they don’t go around suggesting it to new player who asking for breakdown, that shouldn’t be a problem

Shhhewww! Man we are lucky! We often Give out (16) $.25/ (16) $1/ (16) $5 here in the Maryland crew... luckily that comes in at 48 chips! I was about to have to tell them all we needed to rework everything!

Man Y'all take this stuff to heart! More chips = more fun (I realize yes to an extent) but I really don't see what the big deal is with 2 1/2 barrels of chips, it plays really well. But then again that's like trying to convince someone that running 8/8/6/6 absolutely sucks!

Again I honestly don't believe there are and "perfect answers" here, especially my own! Lol I like tall stacks and I suck as a poker player... only way I get stacks is to give myself lots and lots of quarters! Haha

 

[Machine]

should likely use the OP here

One PCFer even economized by only giving a few players any change chips at all. I can extend that idea to a policy that no change chips be given during a re-buy.

It was likely me, but you misunderstood the why, it is never to save money, AND I don't give out the lowest 'change' chips on re-buys.

 

[LeLe]

Shhhewww! Man we are lucky! We often Give out (16) $.25/ (16) $1/ (16) $5 here in the Maryland crew... luckily that comes in at 48 chips! I was about to have to tell them all we needed to rework everything!

Man Y'all take this stuff to heart! More chips = more fun (I realize yes to an extent) but I really don't see what the big deal is with 2 1/2 barrels of chips, it plays really well. But then again that's like trying to convince someone that running 8/8/6/6 absolutely sucks!

Again I honestly don't believe there are and "perfect answers" here, especially my own! Lol I like tall stacks and I suck as a poker player... only way I get stacks is to give myself lots and lots of quarters! Haha

I change my wording haha I was thinking 50+ chip for 100bb when I was writing it

If you are playing with 500bb staring stack 50 chip will be too little

Being a 50c/$1 player myself my average starting stack for 100bb is

4x 50c or 8 x 25c
18 x $1
15 x $5

Rebuy will be in barrel of $5 and subsequently in $25 after that

 

[MeridianFC]

Nobody wants to play cash with just a few chips. Just feels shitty.

if you use this as your spiritual Northstar you will not go wrong.

 

[Machine]

Woops. By "OUT THERE" I mean on the rest of the internet. Not on PCF. Mea culpa.

I don't just want the fish. I want to learn how to fish. I see the recommendations. I am trying to dig into the why.

I prefer PLO (pot limit omaha), the blinds are .25 / .50, no one is preflop raising with change chips or .25, they need them for the blinds, people raise to $1, the next raise is going to again be an integer. One person having $10 or $15 in quarters really slows down the game.

I have a dealer, a shuffler, and the focus of the game is to keep it going, there is no rake. I don't want to wait for someone to count out 5 USD in quarters 2 at a time, drives me nuts. I end up lean on the quarters, but then put in a bunch of 1s and 5s, typically I get in 200 1s and 200 5s, and 25 20s..

I give out 2 to 3 USD in fracs at the start to about 8 players, then no more, rebuys are typically 1 or 2 20s and some 5s.

By that time there is a, well at least local saying that if you play PLO you'll understand. 'ATP' at that point, it means the game is now larger than when it started because of the amount of money on the table in comparison to the starting stacks and blinds. Now there are enough chips in play people are moving stacks in and they can't get all in on the flop or turn.

I typically get about 520 chips in the game, however I have over 1500 in the set we are playing with, again I would advocate you understand what game you want to spread and then consider the mount of money or bank you need to cover, then organize a chip break down.

I have too many fracs (ceramics) and if you'd like to purchase them you can, I'm not necessary trying to sell you anything, its not being bias, the advice is the same.

 

[jdub]

Come in asking question but being a a** about it... great way to make friends on the internet bro.

You missed the part where I said "OUT THERE" meant other internet sites, not PCF. I caught that my wording could be miscontrued shortly after I posted.

 

[Eriks]

I don't want to wait for someone to count out 5 USD in quarters 2 at a time, drives me nuts.

Different issue but yeah, that triggers me as well. In fact my pulse got a bit higher just reading about it.

I don’t get why otherwise intelligent people can’t count a stack of $5s in groups of fives, a stack of $25s in groups of fours etc. ”10, 20, 30, 40….AAAARRGH

 

[jdub]

I typically get about 520 chips in the game, however I have over 1500 in the set we are playing with, again I would advocate you understand what game you want to spread and then consider the mount of money or bank you need to cover, then organize a chip break down.

I caught wind of the "bank" idea on the last round of posting. I added "bank" to my spreadsheet before figuring the breakdown. In doing so I could see why I was planning on way too many chips.

 

[Eriks]

You missed the part where I said "OUT THERE" meant other internet sites, not PCF. I caught that my wording could be miscontrued shortly after I posted.

Yeah, I misunderstood as well. The gif above was actually meant to represent me trying to figure out what the hell you were saying .

Re-read with a pair of rested eyes though and got it.

 

[jdub]

should likely use the OP here


It was likely me, but you misunderstood the why, it is never to save money, AND I don't give out the lowest 'change' chips on re-buys.

I thought about posting there. The original question in this thread was very narrow and specific. I caught I lot of discussion here which is kind of a surprise. I thought I would catch one person saying 2X is good yah.

I did catch a good argument on both sides of "why" here. One side is waiting for people to count. The other side is enjoying lots of chips on the table. I'll probably end up using fewer change chips based on what I am used to at the local tavern.

 

[jdub]

Yeah, I misunderstood as well. The gif above was actually meant to represent me trying to figure out what the hell you were saying .

Re-read with a pair of rested eyes though and got it.

I thought the GIF was supposed to be me overthinking it. I thought it was a good natured ribbing.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Is the dice chipset breakdown just dumb?

You don't even need to know what the breakdown is to know the answer is "yes". Mass-market chips are not manufactured, packaged, marketed, and sold with an audience such as us in mind. You can be certain that in no way will anything about them - including their breakdown - meet the standards that we, a group laser-focused on poker chips, will hold ourselves to.

that said

As I've said and will continue to say, breakdowns don't matter nearly as much as we like to tell ourselves. There is no perfect breakdown, different people will have different preferences, and almost anything will work well enough to host a game and have a good time. Even the breakdowns you get in typical dice chip sets.

 

[jdub]

Thanks all. I've got what I came for to get me started in my first chip set and understanding why.

 

[allforcharity]

As I've said and will continue to say, breakdowns don't matter nearly as much as we like to tell ourselves. There is no perfect breakdown, different people will have different preferences, and almost anything will work well enough to host a game and have a good time. Even the breakdowns you get in typical dice chip sets.

BLASPHEMY!

 

[CrazyEddie]

 

[Taghkanic]

Too many chips can slow down the play for counting out all in sized bets, too few chips can lead to too much change making.

Every self-dealt game needs one idiot savant math whiz who can be relied upon to compute all ins, pot sized bets, etc.—and in split pot games, divide the winnings correctly.

I have one reg who (a) always attends and (b) has never, ever been wrong on a count. Sometimes a new guy will challenge his count and that never ends up well for the new guy. It’s just a natural talent for some people.

Once you find one of these geniuses, then you can have nineteen different denoms in play and pass out random gigantic stacks with every rebuy. Problem solved!

 

[jdub]

I know this person. "Clem, How many chips do I have behind? Sara wants to know." "5725 including your card cap. She has you covered."