Casino Tournament - Pocket 8s pre-flop?

p5woody

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I play almost exclusively in home games and mostly tournaments. I play in the local casino tournament once or twice a year. Wife was out of town so this was the week to play. Nightly tournament, Buyin is 120, starting stack 18k (15k + early bonus of 3k), with 35 players. It is a rebuy tournament with 15min blinds.

It is early in the tournament so no real reads on the table other then I noticed a few players limping and then calling preflop raises. Blinds are 100/200, I am the dealer with 4 limpers to me and I have 88. My thought is unless I raise big I am going to get at least two callers, so I decide to set mine and limp. the small blind also limps and the big blind raises it to 2200. He gets one caller and action is on me with small blind left to act. So pot is 5400 and it cost me 2000 to call.

1st question - was limping the first time correct?
2nd question - now what should I do?
 

Frogzilla

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1st question - was limping the first time correct?
2nd question - now what should I do?

1- pockets play well just limping behind when you have position on everybody. I limp my 88 all day here, maybe even limp as good as TT

2-call, but it seems close and folding is probably fine. You don’t have to play table sheriff and overdefend squeezes when it’s this multi-way. I think you have odds to peel a flop if the SB tags along
 

Mojo1312

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Stack sizes are relevant.

This type of tournament changes completely once the re-buy period is over. Arguments can be made for limping or set mining. I lean towards the later for the simple reason that certain players are going to try to double up early. Hard to know if BB has a big pocket pair and doesn't want to see a flop 5 handed or if he has a premium hand like Ace - Jack and is punishing the limpers.

Fold if you are playing one bullet. Call if re-buying isn't a concern.

There is of course a third option. Re-raising to 6K.
 

Mr Winberg

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What do you all think of jamming? We should be able to push away the caller, and there's probably a decent chance that the BB is out of line and will fold as well.

If he calls with two overcards then we have a 50/50 with 3000 in dead money, which I would say is favorable.
If he calls with an over pair that's of course bad...
 

Rhodeman77

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Raising at this point makes no sense. Hero has the button and passed on his chance to raise then. At best Hero’s hand looks like AJ/A5 suited, 88 or smaller pocket pair. He can never have a premium hand.

As mentioned, since this a rebuy tournament that is a big factor in any decisions until that period is over. Relative stack sizes are important to know, but I’m guessing everyone is near their starting stacks since Hero says it is early in the tournament.

As played I’m calling. Hero has best position to evaluate the flop and go from there.

I would have preferred a raise when the action first got to Hero on the button. Squeeze out some of the limpers and get some dead money in the pot.
 

Legend5555

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What are the stack sizes? It may not even be correct to call this large a raise to set mine. Being 3 ways helps a good bit though.
 

danopoker

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I'm assuming the stacks are all around the starting size, 18k.

Early in the tournament, I think I'd just fold and wait for better spots. This is a lot to throw away chasing a set.

If you were short stacked you probably would have just shoved all in.

I think once you limp like you did, you can call a small-ish raise, but I wouldn't call with 10% of my stack or more under the circumstances. I think I'd need the possibility of getting 20:1 when the perfect storm occurs.
 

timinater

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If everyone is around starting stack calling to set mine won’t ever be profitable. You need them to have at least 10x their raise behind. You need that as well in your stack.

This should have been a raise originally.
 

Frogzilla

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What do you all think of jamming? We should be able to push away the caller, and there's probably a decent chance that the BB is out of line and will fold as well.

If he calls with two overcards then we have a 50/50 with 3000 in dead money, which I would say is favorable.
If he calls with an over pair that's of course bad.
It’s a strange line so I don’t expect a ton of fold equity from BB. It might be profitable with some holdings because of how dead that limp/flatter is, but then again calling is probably profitable too. And 88 is a poor hand to turn into a large 4-bet bluff...usually you’d want an Ace if you ever want to do this, which again not sure you do. Maybe if you have a read that the BB loves to squeeze limpers you can do this with some Ax
 

upNdown

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It sounds stupid, but In a tournament like this, I think limping there was the best strategy. If you raised on the button, you would have gotten multiple callers.
If you’re ready and willing to rebuy, and you think you maybe can outplay the other guys post-flop (even when you miss your set,) then sure, a raise was good, and as played, a call is fine.
But if you’re looking to play this on one bullet, then you fold.
I think on fast blind rebuy tournaments you see way too many limp calls. So you either need to 1) put your stack at risk and rebuy early and often, or 2) limp good cards in position, and try to survive with a decent stack until after the rebuy period - then play poker.
 

Mojo1312

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Table image comes into play in this spot as does the fact that no one has re-raised their hands. IMO, it is more about the BB holdings then Hero's. We don't know what his tendencies are, how often he has raised pre-flop or how many flops he is seeing. I wouldn't rule out re-raising, but then again, I am not averse to taking risks in re-buy tournaments with a fairly aggressive structure.
 

DrStrange

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Let's assume everyone has a stack of 18,000. Hero has pocket eights and is looking at a limp festival, could go to a seven way flop for 200 each.

Pocket pairs play extremely well in deep stacked multiway pots. Limping along is a low variance play and quite suitable for the hand and situation. But it isn't the only way to play the hand.

Hero could also raise choosing two lines. He could make a small raise, intending to end up with a massively multi-way pot. Let's say raise to 700 - 500 raise into a 1,300 pot. Or Hero can make a serious raise, say raise to 1,500 which would be a pot sized raise intended to thin the field substantially.

As played. Hero gets a squeeze raise from the big blind. I see several options, but I encourage hero to make a snap read on the big blind. Is this a squeeze or a real hand? I know it is an uninformed read but still worth the effort.
a) Hero absolutely could jam, more so if his read is squeeze vs real hand. Villain's hand is strongly weighted towards over cards vs big pairs even if the bet was purely value.
b) Hero can call and then evaluate the flop texture. Sure a set would be nice, but Hero can also play his pair unimproved in the right circumstances.
c) Hero can fold. Losing 200 chips out of 18,000 is trivial. But be sure to watch how this hand plays out because this situation with the same villain can happen several more times.

What should hero do? Well first off we have to know if a rebuy is possible and if hero is so inclined. My personal preference is fold > jam > call but really all three lines are playable. Without rebuys, fold gets to be a stronger option.

How does Hero feel? A gut read could be the best option, but folding can't be a big mistake -=- DrStrange
 

Mr Winberg

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It’s a strange line so I don’t expect a ton of fold equity from BB. It might be profitable with some holdings because of how dead that limp/flatter is, but then again calling is probably profitable too. And 88 is a poor hand to turn into a large 4-bet bluff...usually you’d want an Ace if you ever want to do this, which again not sure you do. Maybe if you have a read that the BB loves to squeeze limpers you can do this with some Ax
I wouldn't call it a bluff. Sure, if BB is bluffing we should take it down, but even when he has a strong non-pair we will be a slight favorite with 3000 in dead money, i.e. we'll win 1500 on average against this. What worries me is if we will lose more in the long run to overpairs than we win in uncontested pots or in races. That's were this comes into play:
Table image comes into play in this spot
There's one player in my group who can't help himself if several limp to his BB. Against him I'm jamming.

I'm not skilled enough to call here. I don't think the price is right to set mine, and I would have a hard time against the inevitable c-bet if I don't hit.
 

Shaggy

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He could make a small raise, intending to end up with a massively multi-way pot. Let's say raise to 700 - 500 raise into a 1,300 pot.

This is my "standard" line in this sutuation... assuming we are all deep. Then an easy fold when I don't hit.
 

Frogzilla

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I don’t see how “whether or not hero would rebuy” is a factor at all. If the tournament is going to be held again, what’s the difference in rebuying now vs rebuying next week/month/year?

I won’t deny that the live low stakes tourney population is generally looser during rebuy periods and the short stacks shove hella light as it closes, so there is some merit for adjustments there, but hero’s rebuy situation is irrelevant
 

Legend5555

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I don’t see how “whether or not hero would rebuy” is a factor at all. If the tournament is going to be held again, what’s the difference in rebuying now vs rebuying next week/month/year?

I won’t deny that the live low stakes tourney population is generally looser during rebuy periods and the short stacks shove hella light as it closes, so there is some merit for adjustments there, but hero’s rebuy situation is irrelevant
This.

Correct/good play is correct/good play regardless of rebuy status.
 

p5woody

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Okay, thanks for all the comments. All stacks are roughly 18k and I will not rebuy.

I thought about it for a little bit, having no real reads. My thought process - I am probably against two players with over cards or a pocket pair and over cards. Thinking BB has an over pair, a big ace AK-AJ, or is making a move but figured it was too early in tournament for that unless he was going with build a big stack or rebuy strategy but didn't get that feeling. The 2nd player probably has a drawing hand like KQ- J10 suited or something like that. Not the best odds, so I decided to find a better spot and folded.

Hand Results: (Reminder I had 88)
SB folded, the flop is 8,8,7 - BB bets out something like 3k on the flop, other caller calls the 3k. The turn is a 7, another 5k bet from BB and called again, the river is an ace and BB goes all in and is called again. Both players flip over AQ and they split the pot.

I know it is decisions not results, but that one hurt! Especially when I wasn't sure I played it correctly.
 

danopoker

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No way would the hand played out the same way 3-handed though, but you still hate to see that flop and all that action after your would-be quads went into the muck.
 

Mojo1312

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I don’t see how “whether or not hero would rebuy” is a factor at all. If the tournament is going to be held again, what’s the difference in rebuying now vs rebuying next week/month/year?

I won’t deny that the live low stakes tourney population is generally looser during rebuy periods and the short stacks shove hella light as it closes, so there is some merit for adjustments there, but hero’s rebuy situation is irrelevant

I would like to know the percentage of spots paid out.

Generally, the pay-out structure is top heavy for these kind of tournaments and they are attended by a lot of players who are more than willing to fire a second bullet if they bust. This balloons the prize pool. Therefore, Hero's re-buy situation is not irrelevant.

Smelt like A,J, A,Q,.
 

p5woody

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I would like to know the percentage of spots paid out.

Generally, the pay-out structure is top heavy for these kind of tournaments and they are attended by a lot of players who are more than willing to fire a second bullet if they bust. This balloons the prize pool. Therefore, Hero's re-buy situation is not irrelevant.

Smelt like A,J, A,Q,.
I think they paid top 4, but we were so far away from cashing figured it wasn't really relevant. I think there was 6-7 rebuys
 

RowdyRawhide

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I do not wanna say "I told you so" but....
Bullshit....you could say that every other hand in poker. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "oh I folded the (insert winning hand here)" I could buy in to the WSOP every year.

I would have played it exactly like @p5woody in this situation
 

surfik

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Bullshit....you could say that every other hand in poker. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "oh I folded the (insert winning hand here)" I could buy in to the WSOP every year.

I would have played it exactly like @p5woody in this situation
Just a little niddle.....
I played cash game some time ago... I had 99 and two other players started leveling. I have 5 bet jammed about 300bb. They both had AK. FLOP was A45 Turn 7 River K. And they chopped my stack. I think my hand evaluation was correct, and I would do that again.
 

Mojo1312

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I think they paid top 4, but we were so far away from cashing figured it wasn't really relevant. I think there was 6-7 rebuys

The original post didn't state whether this tournament was at a casino or someone else's home. Based upon the details, such as our Hero being unfamiliar with the players, the size of the buy-in and the length of the blinds, I thought our Hero was at the casino.

I have played in a number of these low buy-in tournaments with similar structures and have never heard of or seen such a low number of re-buys. Even the $550 two day tournament I played in a year ago involving three flights of 100 players had 127 re-entries.
 

stocky

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Just a little niddle.....
I played cash game some time ago... I had 99 and two other players started leveling. I have 5 bet jammed about 300bb. They both had AK. FLOP was A45 Turn 7 River K. And they chopped my stack. I think my hand evaluation was correct, and I would do that again.

5 bet jamming 300bb with 9s. I hope i get a chance to sit at your table.
 
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