Can we talk about shipping insurance, and who's liable for loss or damage (2 Viewers)

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I've seen a few sales recently where sellers have offered buyers the option of paying for shipping insurance. This strikes me as very wrong. It seems to me that if I buy something from you, its your responsibility to either deliver me the product or give me my money back. And that seems very obvious to me, today. But I will admit that my thoughts have evolved over the years, here. So maybe it's got something to do with the culture here. There was a time when I believed that if a package got lost or damaged, it might be fair for the buyer and seller to split the loss. I'm not sure what changed my mind - it wasn't anything specific, just an evolution of thought, I guess. But it seems pretty clear to me that insurance is something sellers should be paying for, if they'd like to be covered. Because it also seems pretty clear to me that if a package goes missing or gets destroyed, that's between the seller and the USPS (or whichever carrier the seller chose) and not the buyer's problem - he gets a refund or a replacement.
 
This is a question I have thought about a few times.

I have always assumed losses would be split between the buyer and the seller (we are Friends and Family after all)

I would not think that is all on the shipper if items get lost unless that is explicitly stated.

I don't have a good reason for these beliefs, it's just how I feel.
 
You're talking about FOB essentially. The question is when does the buyer assume the risk of the shipment.

In North America, FOB is written into a sales agreement to determine where the liability responsibility for the goods transfers from the seller to the buyer. FOB stands for "Free On Board". There is no line item payment by the buyer for the cost of getting the goods onto the transport. There are two possibilities: "FOB origin", or "FOB destination". "FOB origin" means the transfer occurs as soon as the goods are safely on board the transport. "FOB destination" means the transfer occurs the moment the goods are removed from the transport at the destination. "FOB origin" (also sometimes phrased as "FOB shipping" or "FOB shipping point") indicates that the sale is considered complete at the seller's shipping dock, and thus the buyer of the goods is responsible for freight costs and liability during transport. With "FOB destination", the sale is complete at the buyer's doorstep and the seller is responsible for freight costs and liability during transport.[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOB_(shipping)
 
I haven’t had a package go missing yet- knock on wood- but I don’t think it should be entirely on the seller. We’re not retail outlets with stock on a shelf. Plus many listings here state the seller takes no responsibility after the package leaves their hands so what’s the legal liability of that statement and if the buyer agrees to it. I always thought to mitigate this situation a split would be the most reasonable compromise. Both sides lose.
 
Loss or theft should absolutely not be the seller's responsibility. That's what insurance will cover. That is a risk the buyer takes if they opt for insurance or not. It's not on the seller to insure for the value of the shipment; the choice should rest with the buyer.

Poor packaging and failure to secure the box and it's contents and subsequent damage and loss of the box contents that result is the responsibility of the seller.

I've learned a thing or two the last few months after having two LFRB's show up in absolutely horrific shape to their destination. Any MFRB or LFRB should be taped all around the box, including and especially the corners of the box. The whole surface area of the box should have tape all around, otherwise you're putting the contents of the box at risk. It makes me feel very nervous to ship any chips otherwise. Which is why I don't plan on selling anything anytime soon :)
 
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It does seem backwards, but my guess is it started with chippers when it wasn't as much of a classified add or seller driven community. Back in the day (and there are still a lot of chippers out there that don't sell chips} and if you really wanted any from them you would be the one taking the risk of loss.
 
Business-to-person sales, the shipper bears responsibility.

Person-to-person sales, like our Classifieds, the seller dictates the terms of sale.

Everyone here is ideally acting in good faith and should be willing to do their best to remedy a situation and work with the buyer, USPS, etc. to fix any issues, but buyers are aware of the risk and are offered steps to mitigate them. If a seller here offers me insurance and I opt not to, how is that on them? If they refuse G&S/insurance as an option, then you should act accordingly. Worst case scenario, you would hope the two parties can work something out, but just inherently putting the sale on the shoulders of the shipper would probably tank the Classifieds even more than they have been as of late.

This reminds me of shades of this thread (https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/risk-of-loss-poker-chips-lost-in-transit.85811/), although poor packaging drastically changes the situation. Still, there are shades of this conversation in there.
 
It depends on what the buyer/seller negotiate in writing. Only the shipper has the option to purchase insurance, so to me silence means the seller is assuming the risk.

From all of my sales:
Chips ship FOB from my post office, and insurance is available at actual cost on top of the shipping cost.
 
If a seller here offers me insurance and I opt not to, how is that on them?
Clearly there are differing opinions.
Personally, I think it is.
I sold some chips last week. The seller paid for the chips and paid for the shipping. I’m sitting there with all the chips AND all the money. It feels to me like it’s my duty to get those chips to him. I thought about insurance. I thought about asking him to pay for it. I thought about asking him to split it. Both thoughts felt wrong. I paid for the insurance. Because if USPS lost that package, I certainly wasn’t going to keep that money.
 
Clearly there are differing opinions.
Personally, I think it is.
I sold some chips last week. The seller paid for the chips and paid for the shipping. I’m sitting there with all the chips AND all the money. It feels to me like it’s my duty to get those chips to him. I thought about insurance. I thought about asking him to pay for it. I thought about asking him to split it. Both thoughts felt wrong. I paid for the insurance. Because if USPS lost that package, I certainly wasn’t going to keep that money.
I think having a bad experience or not (from either side) can certainly influence ones perspective on this issue.
 
Clearly there are differing opinions.
Personally, I think it is.
I sold some chips last week. The seller paid for the chips and paid for the shipping. I’m sitting there with all the chips AND all the money. It feels to me like it’s my duty to get those chips to him. I thought about insurance. I thought about asking him to pay for it. I thought about asking him to split it. Both thoughts felt wrong. I paid for the insurance. Because if USPS lost that package, I certainly wasn’t going to keep that money.
It's really as simple as my italicized point, "the seller dictates the terms of sale". The buyer acts accordingly. You decided to make a deal or listing that did not address insurance whatsoever, so yeah, I can see how you can feel responsible since this was never specified.

Clear and transparent sales/communication largely render this whole conversation moot, without regard to potential issues that can change the situation, like poor packaging, incorrect address information inserted, etc. Assuming this is addressed before you show up at the post office, then a situation that arises should be met in good faith with two parties working on a solution, not arguing over something that should already have been handled.
 
If you use g&s it is by default sellers liability and I think eBay illustrates how liability always being on sellers is a problem. It’s a recipe for fraud. F&f transactions have the opposite problem - now sellers are able to screw buyers.

Which one makes more sense depends on the reputation of the buyer / seller. But if you use g&s default liability is on seller and for f&f it’s on the buyer.


For me if I’m selling to reputable buyers with long sales histories that are 100% positive I’m fine doing g&s and/or assuming liability because I have never had a package legit go missing. If it’s a high value package I’ll buy insurance for my own sake. If I’m selling to people with no feedback or very little feedback, or worse with negative feedback - it’s f&f only and I’ll specify that they can purchase additional insurance (on top of the $100 that is given by default for Canada post packages). Not worth the risk otherwise. May as well sell on eBay for twice the price.
 
Business-to-person sales, the shipper bears responsibility.

Person-to-person sales, like our Classifieds, the seller dictates the terms of sale.

Everyone here is ideally acting in good faith and should be willing to do their best to remedy a situation and work with the buyer, USPS, etc. to fix any issues, but buyers are aware of the risk and are offered steps to mitigate them. If a seller here offers me insurance and I opt not to, how is that on them? If they refuse G&S/insurance as an option, then you should act accordingly. Worst case scenario, you would hope the two parties can work something out, but just inherently putting the sale on the shoulders of the shipper would probably tank the Classifieds even more than they have been as of late.

This reminds me of shades of this thread (https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/risk-of-loss-poker-chips-lost-in-transit.85811/), although poor packaging drastically changes the situation. Still, there are shades of this conversation in there.
+1
 
My thoughts was;

Buyer pays shipping and insurance is my stance, and if it’s lost, it’s on the buyer.

And I’m mostly a buyer not seller.

NOW if they have vendor status, I’d say THEY are responsible for shipping and insuring.

As always it should be in the listing.

This is a hobby website. Not a retail online store.
 
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The buyer really has enough to worry about, the risk (responsibility) of shipping the product is and should be on the shipper.

The buyer doesn't take possession until they reach them. The buyer is assuming the risk of fraud, and with higher values comes greater risk. I've seen 'high' valued chips for sale and the seller only accepts FF.

I've bought high value chips that were damaged and sent the seller photos, he instantly refunded all of the sell price, which was extreme because it was only a few. I got him off the ledge and we worked out a fair discount.

The risk of shipping high value product poorly or using your cousin's best friend's girlfriends sisters' boi friends' mom's neighbor's kid is this, the risk of shipping is the sellers, and if the seller uses the most reputable transport company s/he can find, its still on them.

Personally its awkward to bit on chips, spend 1000 on the chips then pay for shipping, then pay for insurance, whats next? Handling? Shipping Materials? Cost of Communication? Cost of the time it took to take the photos and post them? What if you get a professional photographer you going to charge me for that as well?
 
Buyer is going to pay for the insurance, either as an additional cost added to shipping, or increased price for the chips. I always ask for extra insurance if there is a significant value being shipped. I always include insurance when shipping something of significant value, and pad my sales price to do so. I have made claims for lost chips and lost $$ before making the buyer whole and I am out the chips and the difference, so not doing that again.
T
 
The buyer really has enough to worry about, the risk (responsibility) of shipping the product is and should be on the shipper.

The buyer doesn't take possession until they reach them. The buyer is assuming the risk of fraud, and with higher values comes greater risk. I've seen 'high' valued chips for sale and the seller only accepts FF.

I've bought high value chips that were damaged and sent the seller photos, he instantly refunded all of the sell price, which was extreme because it was only a few. I got him off the ledge and we worked out a fair discount.

The risk of shipping high value product poorly or using your cousin's best friend's girlfriends sisters' boi friends' mom's neighbor's kid is this, the risk of shipping is the sellers, and if the seller uses the most reputable transport company s/he can find, its still on them.

Personally its awkward to bit on chips, spend 1000 on the chips then pay for shipping, then pay for insurance, whats next? Handling? Shipping Materials? Cost of Communication? Cost of the time it took to take the photos and post them? What if you get a professional photographer you going to charge me for that as well?
I think this underscores the importance of transacting with reputable sources. You may pay more but there is intangible value added- as with most things in life.
 
The buyer really has enough to worry about, the risk (responsibility) of shipping the product is and should be on the shipper.

The buyer doesn't take possession until they reach them. The buyer is assuming the risk of fraud, and with higher values comes greater risk. I've seen 'high' valued chips for sale and the seller only accepts FF.

I've bought high value chips that were damaged and sent the seller photos, he instantly refunded all of the sell price, which was extreme because it was only a few. I got him off the ledge and we worked out a fair discount.

The risk of shipping high value product poorly or using your cousin's best friend's girlfriends sisters' boi friends' mom's neighbor's kid is this, the risk of shipping is the sellers, and if the seller uses the most reputable transport company s/he can find, its still on them.

Personally its awkward to bit on chips, spend 1000 on the chips then pay for shipping, then pay for insurance, whats next? Handling? Shipping Materials? Cost of Communication? Cost of the time it took to take the photos and post them? What if you get a professional photographer you going to charge me for that as well?
I think we’re talking about different things here. To pack properly (fucking bomb proof if we’re about talking high value sets) is the seller’s responsibility. But after that is done and the package is left in the care of the shipping company, to me that ends the sellers ”legal” obligations. If a package gets lost I’d expect them to file a complaint and help out as much as possible but I would never ask to split the loss or anything.
 
NOW if they have vendor status, I’d say THEY are responsible for shipping and insuring.

As always it should be in the listing.

This is a hobby website. Not a retail online store.
Lol. No.

I provide a service and take no liability. I don't sell anything. Happy to give ya insurance on my discounted rate, but yeah. It's not on me. I just make sure the box is solid (@JMC9389 ) and send tracking.
 
What has the group’s experience been with claiming insurance? I always assume any insurance entity will fight tooth and nail to not pay out. So in my mind it’s not like buying insurance is foolproof.
 
Let me tell you a story!

A buddy of mine in the UK was after a pair of limited edition Reebok trainers and I foolishly agreed to buy them for him here and ship them. The package was shipped by USPS with insurance and signature on delivery.

On arrival in the UK, it was handed over to Parcel Force where the driver delivered the package but as my buddy wasn't at home, the driver signed for it himself and left it on his doorstep. The package was stolen from my buddy's doorstep.

I contact USPS to claim the insurance and after a month, they get back to me and say the package was delivered and signed for - go away.

My buddy had to call Parcel Force multiple times to get them to admit that he didn't sign for the package and they change the package status to undelivered.

I contact USPS again and they say the package is still with Parcel Force and to wait.

My buddy has to call Parcel Force again and have the package marked lost.

I contact USPS once again and they say they will look into it. 3 months later, they accept that it's lost and pay out the insurance. It was probably 6 months from when I sent the package to when I got the insurance payout.

In conclusion, insurance will let you get your money back but not without a huge amount of effort on the part of both sender and receiver. You can see from my experience that the bulk of the work in getting the insurance pay-out was actually done by the receiver even though the sender is the only one able to claim on the insurance. If your buyer isn't willing to put in the effort to help get the insurance pay-out then who's responsible?

I fully understand why sellers are reluctant to send stuff overseas. I'm happy to send stuff abroad but I always state that it's at the buyer's cost and risk - learned the hard way. Is it fair, no; but it's a hell of a lot less hassle.
 
I think we’re talking about different things here. To pack properly (fucking bomb proof if we’re about talking high value sets) is the seller’s responsibility. But after that is done and the package is left in the care of the shipping company, to me that ends the sellers ”legal” obligations. If a package gets lost I’d expect them to file a complaint and help out as much as possible but I would never ask to split the loss or anything.
I was highlighting multiple aspects that reside with the seller. Things the buyer can't do, the focus is shipping...

I won't bring up such names, but what stops the seller from claiming shipping, claiming they filed a complaint, this has happened!

Until the buyer takes possession of the product, its the seller's responsibility full stop.
The seller shouldn't offer 'insurance' they should add it into the cost of the product, the buyer can't purchase it.

If I drive to your house, pay for a product and then get slammed into by a drunk driver, I'm not going to come back and say 'I was hit, lets split'; If you are bringing me a product and you never make it to my house and the accident destroys the product, I'm not going to pay for it.

I've bought stuff off of a zesty dude, We discussed it, he said we're good, "I'll cover if there is any issue". It was higher than I like to take risk with, it was lower than he cared to pay for insurance, I trusted him and there was no issue, I'm sure he would have made it good had there been an issue.
 

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