Tourney Can someone explain color ups to me?

SquirtlePow

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Title says it all, hear the term a lot and have a vague idea of what it is. Why/when/how would you color up in a tournament?
 

trigs

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You color up in tournaments when you no longer need the smaller denomination chips. For example, if you are using a base T25 chip once the blinds no longer require the use of them, they are traded in for a higher denomination. Basically, they are useless and therefore removed from play.
 

Mr Winberg

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That's the why, here's the how:

First task is to exchange each player's low denom chips with the house for higher value chips. If it's a home game and you have taught your players well, they well help by each player exchanging the denom that is to be colored up with the table's chipleader. That way, the host only needs to make change with one player per table, which is faster. That player should of course have the chips in neet stacks. On the rare occasion that my players succeed with this, I actually have time to go to the bathroom during the break.

The second task is taking care of all the odd chips that are left. There's a correct way and there's a convenient way.

The correct way is chip racing. If T25 are being colored up, group the players such that a group's T25 count equals 4. Example: Player A has 1, B has 1, C has 2. A and B get one card each, C gets 2. High card gets the T100. Same value, then look at the suits. Spades > Hearts > Diamonds > Clubs.
When done, there should be exactly the same chip value on the table(s) as before the color-up.

The convenient way is rounding up. All players with spare T25s after the exchange get a T100. This method is for any host who actually wants to use the break for other things than host duties, like voiding one's bladder, refilling on alcohol, checking PCF for pr0n, checking google in general for pr0n, etc...
 

Pinesol13

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That's the why, here's the how:

First task is to exchange each player's low denom chips with the house for higher value chips. If it's a home game and you have taught your players well, they well help by each player exchanging the denom that is to be colored up with the table's chipleader. That way, the host only needs to make change with one player per table, which is faster. That player should of course have the chips in neet stacks. On the rare occasion that my players succeed with this, I actually have time to go to the bathroom during the break.

The second task is taking care of all the odd chips that are left. There's a correct way and there's a convenient way.

The correct way is chip racing. If T25 are being colored up, group the players such that a group's T25 count equals 4. Example: Player A has 1, B has 1, C has 2. A and B get one card each, C gets 2. High card gets the T100. Same value, then look at the suits. Spades > Hearts > Diamonds > Clubs.
When done, there should be exactly the same chip value on the table(s) as before the color-up.

The convenient way is rounding up. All players with spare T25s after the exchange get a T100. This method is for any host who actually wants to use the break for other things than host duties, like voiding one's bladder, refilling on alcohol, checking PCF for pr0n, checking google in general for pr0n, etc...

I've occasionally done it the convenient way but with a slightly different approach. If a player has 50% or more of what we're coloring up to I give them a chip. So if a player only has one 25 chip they lose it, but if they have 2 or 3 they get rounded up to 100. I'd be curious what people think of this approach.
 

Mr Winberg

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I've occasionally done it the convenient way but with a slightly different approach. If a player has 50% or more of what we're coloring up to I give them a chip. So if a player only has one 25 chip they lose it, but if they have 2 or 3 they get rounded up to 100. I'd be curious what people think of this approach.
My first thought is that as long as you are consistent and everyone knows the rules, then fine. There are always house rules, not even casinos always have the same rules.

One benefit with rounding up is that normally no one complains. If I take someone's T25 away they might complain ('cause how many people actually read your rules anyway?), and if players complain, then the convenient way becomes less convenient. That's why I round up: It's fast and nobody complains. If your players don't complain, then go for it.

Can angles be shot when rounding up? Sure. Last hand before the break, if someone is bluffing and has 3 spare T25s, they can throw in 2 extra in the bet with nothing to lose. Is chip racing worth the trouble to avoid this? That's up to the host.
 

DeeVee8

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That's the why, here's the how:

First task is to exchange each player's low denom chips with the house for higher value chips. If it's a home game and you have taught your players well, they well help by each player exchanging the denom that is to be colored up with the table's chipleader. That way, the host only needs to make change with one player per table, which is faster. That player should of course have the chips in neet stacks. On the rare occasion that my players succeed with this, I actually have time to go to the bathroom during the break.

The second task is taking care of all the odd chips that are left. There's a correct way and there's a convenient way.

The correct way is chip racing. If T25 are being colored up, group the players such that a group's T25 count equals 4. Example: Player A has 1, B has 1, C has 2. A and B get one card each, C gets 2. High card gets the T100. Same value, then look at the suits. Spades > Hearts > Diamonds > Clubs.
When done, there should be exactly the same chip value on the table(s) as before the color-up.

The convenient way is rounding up. All players with spare T25s after the exchange get a T100. This method is for any host who actually wants to use the break for other things than host duties, like voiding one's bladder, refilling on alcohol, checking PCF for pr0n, checking google in general for pr0n, etc...
+1 on the chip leader buying up the lower chips. I usually color up AFTER the level you normally would, and I do it during play. Then the low denom chips aren't in play and its easier to buy them up without leaving someone short. Then I'll ask a trusted player to grab a rack of 100's and buy them off the chip leader. Makes life much easier and you don't have to waste your break.
 

Mr Winberg

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IMO this is a horrible idea. What if the player is down to one chip remaining. They’re out?
Not that I ever use this method, but in this case I think the TDA rule comes into play where you can't get knocket out by a chip race. The player would simply get rounded up.

Although, I kinda like the idea of eliminating them: "That's all you've got? Get the f#ck out of here!!"
 

BGinGA

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Rounding is both faster and more convenient for the TD. And not wrong, either (unless specifically prohibited by the governing rules) -- many casinos (and home tournaments) use the round-up approach.
 

BGinGA

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The correct way is chip racing.

When done, there should be exactly the same chip value on the table(s) as before the color-up.
It's only correct IF required by the governing rules.

And the second part is only always true for single table events. If player(s) are moved to balance tables during a multi-table event, the probability of extra color-up chips being required at every table is high.
 

Pinesol13

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Not that I ever use this method, but in this case I think the TDA rule comes into play where you can't get knocket out by a chip race. The player would simply get rounded up.

Although, I kinda like the idea of eliminating them: "That's all you've got? Get the f#ck out of here!!"
Yes, it's never actually happened to me where a player only had 1 chip left, but if that were the case they would receive 1 chip, not be eliminated.

The reason I started doing the 50% or above thing is because it creates a similar outcome to a chip race but it is more convenient. In a chip race some players are going to have 3 of the low denom chips left, but they end up losing them because they lost the race.
 

BGinGA

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So the only time somebody gets shorted on your color-up "rounding" process is with one T25, one T100, two T100, one T1000, or two T1000s?

It all seems rather selective to me, and I fail to see any advantage or how it's more convenient or fair than a true round-up procedure. I just hope it's specified in your written rules.
 

Mr Winberg

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And the second part is only always true for single table events. If player(s) are moved to balance tables during a multi-table event, the probability of extra color-up chips being required at every table is high.
That depends if you chip race across tables or not. Before I found the wonderful world of rounding I used to do this (we've never been more than 4 tables, so it was never complicated), and when doing so the chip value always ends up the same. Nowadays I always round up.

Hmmmm... does this make me a rounder?
 

Gobbs

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Basically, If your coloring up method makes a difference to your players, you probably have a blind structure problem. So, just round up and make it convenient.
 

Alex Lundstrum

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The correct way is chip racing. If T25 are being colored up, group the players such that a group's T25 count equals 4. Example: Player A has 1, B has 1, C has 2. A and B get one card each, C gets 2. High card gets the T100. Same value, then look at the suits. Spades > Hearts > Diamonds > Clubs.
When done, there should be exactly the same chip value on the table(s) as before the color-up.
In my experience, this is almost correct, however I've always seen the race done per table, one card per odd chip, then award a number of higher denim chips equal to the full value (rounded up) of the odd chips. If you do each group of 4 T25 individually, the player in last seat would have an advantage, as they may be racing uncontested.
That depends if you chip race across tables or not.
While this would ensure that the color up doesn't add any extra chips to the tourney, it seems overly cumbersome, as well as gives the opportunity to run out of cards. At a single table (Max 11 players x Max 4 odd chips each = 44 cards).
 

Mr Winberg

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If you do each group of 4 T25 individually, the player in last seat would have an advantage, as they may be racing uncontested.
If chip racing in groups, and doing so across tables, then this will never be the case. The player with the lone T25 will be racing against 3 other T25 on another table.

as well as gives the opportunity to run out of cards.
When grouping the players per color-up chip, the race is isolated to those players in the group. You're not racing all players at once.

it seems overly cumbersome
Yes, I agree. Your response, and @BGinGA's response, have made me realize that the race approach I described isn't what people use. It seems that you race a whole table instead of grouping players. I always figured the reason behind racing was to keep the chip count intact, which explains why I've done it that way.

So far in this thread we've come across 4 ways:

1) Race in groups, where a group can be spread across tables. Chip count will be intact. Cumbersome.

2) Race per table. Chip count increases ever so slighty. Less cumbersome, but still cumbersome.

3) Rounding up and down. Convenient, but not everyone seems to like it. Chip count increases slightly.

4) Rounding up. Convenient, everyone is happy, chip count increases most of all methods (but still not by much)
 

Matt G

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We round up 50% or more. The time we remove $25 chips is also end of rebuys and add-on for our game. We have never had a player with less than 50% of $100 chip when we remove those. Always done it this way and no one has ever complained.
 

Mr Winberg

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The time we remove $25 chips is also end of rebuys and add-on for our game.
Same here, I always have the breaks at color-ups and whenever I have rebuys they end at the break.

We have never had a player with less than 50% of $100 chip when we remove those
You've never played with me! :D
Before this happens, make sure you add to your rules how to handle it, unless you always fall back on TDA rules, in that case you're covered.
 

Blind Joe

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Rounding up has always seemed fairer to me. Nobody loses any chips but neither does anyone gain a significant advantage either, assuming a pretty standard blinds structure.

Eg. the T25s are coloured up after the 150/300 level and the next level is 200/400. Any round up only equates to half a SB, so whether a player has 1, 2 or 3 T25s they don't get to play an extra hand with the T100 they'll receive.

Sure there's an advantage if a player wins a hand with those extra 25-75 chips but it's a small advantage in the grand scheme of things and preferable, imo, to losing chips and effectively missing a hand.
 

Davism72

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Great thread! I’ve wondered these things also.

Follow on question: Why is 500 considered a color up chip and frequently bought in lower quantity than 25 and 100? Are people coloring up stacks of 25s to a single 500? Or rounding up to it? That seems crazy.
 

Beakertwang

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Great thread! I’ve wondered these things also.

Follow on question: Why is 500 considered a color up chip and frequently bought in lower quantity than 25 and 100? Are people coloring up stacks of 25s to a single 500? Or rounding up to it? That seems crazy.
Others can explain this more eloquently, but basically, you don't want to color up 25's with 100's that will need to be removed at the next color up. Have one of the big stacks buy up all the 25's, and exchange barrels of 25's with a single 500. If you need some 100's for odd stacks of 4 or a color up race, buy a few up from the bank. I think some may use 1000's for color ups.
 

Mr Winberg

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Why is 500 considered a color up chip and frequently bought in lower quantity than 25 and 100? Are people coloring up stacks of 25s to a single 500? Or rounding up to it? That seems crazy.
I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll give it a go, apologies if I miss the mark.

First of all, T500s are bought in lower quantity than T25, T100 (and even T1000) because you never really need to use more than one when betting. The reason for this is that the next chip value (T1000) is 2X the T500. If betting efficiently, you never need more (per bet) than 3 T25, 4 T100, 1 T500, 4 T1000, etc... (unless, of course, you are out of the next chip value). That is the reason for only using a few T500 per player.

The are exceptions, of course. I love hosting T10k tournaments starting with 20 T25, 20 T100, and 15 T500 per stack. Since I don't use T1000 in that line-up, lots of T500 are needed. MOAR chips!

If you use T2000s instead of T1000s, then you need more T500 because the next chip value is 4X and when betting you will need up to 3 T500 per bet.

Nobody is rounding up from T25 to T500, we are rounding to a T100. However, that does not mean that we are introducing T100 chips from the bank. The most efficient way to introduce chips is to introduce chips which will not be removed later. Since T100 are likely to be colored off before the end, it's inefficient to introduce more. Instead, introduce chips which won't be removed, which can be T1000s or even T5000s depending on the structur and the number of players. These chips are exchanged to T100s from a chipleader, which in turn are used to exchange everyone's T25.
 

BGinGA

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Good explainations by beaker and winberg above.

In most T25-base structures that use T1000 chips, the T25, T100, and T500 chips will all be eventually removed from play as blind levels get larger. Adequate numbers of each of those denominations will (or should) also already be on the table via the starting stacks, so adding more later as color-up chips is both inefficient and a waste of chipping dollars.

However, the T1000 chip later becomes a workhorse chip (similar to the T100 early on, where as noted earlier, up to 4 chips may be required for either bets or for change), yet due to most conventional starting stack sizes, fewer T1000 chips are initially distributed to players.

The planned color-up of the T25 and T100 chips is where this can be rectified. By introducing T1000 chips when removing the lower denominations, it is both an efficient process (exchanging at a rate of 10:1 or 40:1), and it also adds the necessary additional numbers of T1000 workhorse chips at exactly the points when they become needed.

Similarly, T5000 chips are best introduced when removing T500 chips (also 10:1 efficiency), as the larger bets towards the end of tournaments will also use more of these denominations.

Most T25-base tournaments will finish before the T1000 chips are no longer needed, but for huge starting stacks or multiple table events that run longer, introducing T25000 chips (25:1) may be required.
 

Kid_Eastwood

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That's the why, here's the how:

First task is to exchange each player's low denom chips with the house for higher value chips. If it's a home game and you have taught your players well, they well help by each player exchanging the denom that is to be colored up with the table's chipleader. That way, the host only needs to make change with one player per table, which is faster. That player should of course have the chips in neet stacks. On the rare occasion that my players succeed with this, I actually have time to go to the bathroom during the break.

The second task is taking care of all the odd chips that are left. There's a correct way and there's a convenient way.

The correct way is chip racing. If T25 are being colored up, group the players such that a group's T25 count equals 4. Example: Player A has 1, B has 1, C has 2. A and B get one card each, C gets 2. High card gets the T100. Same value, then look at the suits. Spades > Hearts > Diamonds > Clubs.
When done, there should be exactly the same chip value on the table(s) as before the color-up.

The convenient way is rounding up. All players with spare T25s after the exchange get a T100. This method is for any host who actually wants to use the break for other things than host duties, like voiding one's bladder, refilling on alcohol, checking PCF for pr0n, checking google in general for pr0n, etc...
I used your "convenient" approach.

Since recently, I went for your "correct" approach since I only host STT. The only reasons are

(1) get the exact same chip count for all the tournament - as @BGinGA said, it's only valid for STT
(2) because in theory for some of my previous set, I had just enough extra chips to color-up in the convenient way and I could not cover the most extreme color-up cases (quite a few players having only one remaining chip of thé lower denom)
 
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