Calling all Mini-May experts (1 Viewer)

[snooptodd]

If you are one, I'd like to meet you.

In case you haven't heard of the game (and why would you), Mini-May is five-card stud hi-low (10 or better) with a community card, an option to replace a card on the end (small bet for an up card, big bet for the down card), and a declare. If you "pig" or go for both and don't win both, you win nothing. We play $1.50/$3.00 betting limits with a $1.50 dealer ante.

Reads - playing against two guys that I have more than 10 years of playing history against. Both competent TAG players, V2 a little more willing to take risks than V1, who can sometimes stick around in pots he should probably abandon, especially in limit games.

In the hand in question, the is the community card, and I have the up and down for a disguised pair of 5s. V2 completed with the and I'm last to act, so I come along for the next card.

Community card:
V1: (x)
Me: ( )
V2: (x):3h

Checked to V2, who bets. V1 comes along, and since he does, I opt to do so too. If he folds, it's not worth playing for likely half of the pot vs. V2's very strong board.

Community card:
V1: (x)
Me: ( )
V2: (x)qh:

V1 leads out, clearly with a made low. What do we do now? Call, raise or fold?

 

[Ben]

We declare the hand dead since we have the 4h x2 showing.

No seriously though, I think we raise. If V2 has a flush we're toast, but odds are he doesn't and just had another decent low card down (with straight draw,) and now has a strong draw to both sides that we need to make him pay for.

 

[Bloody Marvelous]

New game for me, but you need to swap out the 8 to make better than a flush, and the odds are against you. V2 will probably raise, representing the flush.

I say you just call. There's an 80% chance he doesn't have the flush and you win the high with your two pair.
After V2 has raised it depends on what V1 will do. If it's a reraise you have to consider pot odds if you wanna hang in there, but assume the betting will be capped before you get to the swap.
If there's no betting round after the swap, that doesn't bode well for your implied odds either.

 

[pltrgyst]

Does "win both" in your game mean win both outright, or can you chop on one or both sides?

 

[snooptodd]

We declare the hand dead since we have the 4h x2 showing.

No seriously though, I think we raise. If V2 has a flush we're toast, but odds are he doesn't and just had another decent low card down (with straight draw,) and now has a strong draw to both sides that we need to make him pay for.

Sorry, it was the 4c (or some other 4, suit doesn't much matter but I definitely had the 4h) ... tried to edit but can't seem to get the card in there now.

Does "win both" in your game mean win both outright, or can you chop on one or both sides?

Chopped halves don't invalidate a pig attempt. So if you've got a wheel and a 6-high straight and go for both, and another player just has the wheel, you get 3/4s, other player gets 1/4.

 

[snooptodd]

Also, edited starting hand ... forgot I actually started with up and ended up with later. Probably giving away that I made it to the replace part of the hand here ...

 

[pltrgyst]

Chopped halves don't invalidate a pig attempt. So if you've got a wheel and a 6-high straight and go for both, and another player just has the wheel, you get 3/4s, other player gets 1/4.

Ah, OK. We always called this game "Six card optional," played either high-only or high-low. But you had to win both sides outright, and the low was 8 or better.

 

[snooptodd]

Chopped halves don't invalidate a pig attempt. So if you've got a wheel and a 6-high straight and go for both, and another player just has the wheel, you get 3/4s, other player gets 1/4.

This, of course, assumes that the person with the wheel only goes for low and not both. If the player with the wheel goes for both, he gets nothing because he lost on the high end.

 

[snooptodd]

I decided to call expecting a raise from V2, who obliges, and V1 just calls, so no-brainer to call and continue.

On to fifth street

Community card:

V1: (x)
Me: ( )
V2: (x)qh:

I'm first to act with a disguised boat, 2 pair showing. How do we extract the most value out of this hand?

 

[Bloody Marvelous]

Ah, so it's a five card stud AND a community card, not five card stud with a community card.

Again, not sure there is another betting round after the swap, or if you swap first and then have the final betting round.

My idea would be to check, and let the others open the betting. V1 has a low, but may not be the only one now, so with his possible 87 low showing may not bet himself against the possible 65 showing from V2. V2 will definitely represent either the 65 low or the flush, regardless of whether he made it or not. By betting you'll only get called.

If it goes bet-raise, you check again, hoping V2 will reraise. If it goes bet-call or bet-fold, you raise. If there's multiple raises you keep checking.

If there's betting after the swap, you swap the queen, pretending you still need to make your hand. You declare high with a slight hint of trepedation in your voice, hoping V2 will declare both high and low and forfeit the pot.

 

[snooptodd]

Ah, so it's a five card stud AND a community card, not five card stud with a community card.

Again, not sure there is another betting round after the swap, or if you swap first and then have the final betting round.

Not quite sure what the difference between "and" and "with" is ... how does that make a difference in how the game is played?

Procedure from here is betting round, swap, betting round, declare, showdown.

Declare is simultaneous with everyone opening their hand to show zero (low), one (high) or two (both) chips.

 

[pltrgyst]

Not quite sure what the difference between "and" and "with" is ... how does that make a difference in how the game is played?/QUOTE]

His point is that most of us probably weren't expecting there to _be_ a fifth street. From your description, we thought the community card was everyone's fifth card, rather than their sixth card.

 

[Ben]

Must bet here so that V2 can raise, which should (hopefully) push V1 out of the pot, since his low is obviously crushed by V2. If V1 has or makes a straight or flush, he probably goes for the hog and we can scoop as long as V1 is no longer in the picture.

 

[snooptodd]

His point is that most of us probably weren't expecting there to _be_ a fifth street. From your description, we thought the community card was everyone's fifth card, rather than their sixth card.

Ahhh ... thanks for that. Now I understand why it was confusing. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[snooptodd]

Must bet here so that V2 can raise, which should (hopefully) push V1 out of the pot, since his low is obviously crushed by V2. If V1 has or makes a straight or flush, he probably goes for the hog and we can scoop as long as V1 is no longer in the picture.

Worth noting, if V2 has a better low than V1 and pigs the pot, V1 still wins nothing because he didn't have the best low. May not be the way most people play declare games, but that's how we do it.

 

[Andrew Marks]

We play mini-May a lot in our home game. I am surprised that others play the same game and call it by the same game. We must have played in the same game (or with some of the same people ) at some point in the past. The game is actually called "Mini-May" in honor of the seven-card stud with a common card game that was played very frequently at the Mayfair Club in NYC back in the 80s. I thought we had actually coined the term "Mini-May" (the "mini" being 5-stud instead of 7; and the "May" being short for "Mayfair") in the home game I used to play in in NYC back then. I introduced that game to the Boston area game that I have played in for the past 18 years and I know some of the players in that game introduced it into other games they play in. Anyway, so much for the history lesson.

As for the hand, given that you started with Q up and an unsuited 5 in the middle, any decent player would know that you either had a Q or a 5 in the hole. Thus, when you show 5s and 4s, there is a good chance you have the boat and I don't think you are likely to convince V2 to go both ways if he has a flush and a low even if you check here. Moreover, if you bet out and V2 raises, then V1 is likely to fold (at best he has an 87 low made with a draw to a 75 low, while V2 may already have a made 65). This is probably your best chance to win the whole pot if V2 does not have a made low and doesn't buy a low. So you should bet out and raise at every opportunity. Moreover, maybe with that much aggerssion V2 will think you are bluffing and give botrh ways a shot if he hits the flush and low.