C&C: 2 pairs K's and Q's on scary board (1 Viewer)

[stafil]

Not a great player here, so would love to hear some comments and criticism for the following hand. It's online NLH 2c/5c cash game.

Table is:

#1 (SB): $6.58
#2 (BB): $2.95
#3 (me): $7.53
#4: $4.69
#5 : $4.80
#6: $2.57
#7 (Dealer) : $6.55

I have Ks Qc and just limp in.
#4 folds
#5 raises to 20c
#6 calls 20c
#7 folds
#1 folds
#2 calls
I call.

Total pot 48c. (WTF rake Bovada!)
Flop comes Ad Qh Kd

#2 checks
I raise 15c
#5 calls 15c
#6 raises 15c to 30c (At this point I have him on Ax. Sounds reasonable? AA QQ KK JJ would have re-raised preflop)
#2 folds
I call (Maybe I should have re-raised?)
#5 calls

Total pot $1.38
Turn 6h

I check
#5 checks
#6 bets $1.27 (Not sure what to think now. AQ? AK? Wouldn't he have re-raised pre-flop?)
I just call
#5 calls

Total pot $6.54
River another 6, 6d.

At this point I think I am behind. What did I do wrong?

(For I put #6 all-in (they had only $.55 left), wrongly in my opinion, and the other two players folded)

 

[detroitdad]

At this point I think I am behind. What did I do wrong?

I don't like limping pre flop with this hand unless your intention is to limp/raise. I prefer betting to limping in most situations (I'm also not a great player lol).

On the flop I'm raising or folding. I'm never just calling. I'm almost never folding unless I have a ton of history with my opponent (like its quiet kevin betting here)

IMO you played way to passively. I'm betting or raising every street.

 

[stafil]

I don't like limping pre flop with this hand unless your intention is to limp/raise. I prefer betting to limping in most situations (I'm also not a great player lol).

On the flop I'm raising or folding. I'm never just calling. I'm almost never folding unless I have a ton of history with my opponent (like its quiet kevin betting here)

IMO you played way to passively. I'm betting or raising every street.

Thanks. I was kind of surprised by his raise on the flop. But I agree with you, looks pretty passive.

What cards would you put him on?

 

[detroitdad]

I would put him on any two cards. This is online .2/.5c poker. In my experience the play is crazy loose. Without any history or notes on the player I'm going to go into it thinking my two pair are best.

 

[Chip Wanter]

If you're still figuring out the game, I would develop a strong rule for yourself where you NEVER open limp. This means that you'll never be the first person to limp into a pot. This actually makes your decision easier when the action is on you: You can either raise, or fold. Find a default raise size pre-flop and use that 100% of the time. This makes your decision even easier - "Either i'm going to raise to 15 cents or fold."

FWIW, you can look up RFI preflop charts online that will show you which range of hands you should be opening based upon which position you are on the table.

Basically, by making this mistake preflop, you've made more and more tough decisions as the hand goes along.

On the flop, you've flopped just about as well as you can hope to. As evidenced through this hand, however, there are a lot of scary turns and rivers where you are no longer sure if you have the best hand. Since that is the case, I would be trying to get as much money into the pot now when we have the most equity. Instead of 15 cents into 48, I would probably bet somewhere between .35 and .40.

By betting .15 cents, you are giving your villains a wonderful price to continue looking for a flush. You want to make this hand as uncomfortable as possible for people who only have a flush draw.

On the turn, I would definitely be barreling. There is a physcological fear "oh no I don't want to be putting tons of money in with a worse hand". But you can't think like that. a 6H is the perfect card to continue betting on. When you check and villain 1 checks and villain 2 bets, I would definitely be raising.


As played i would fold on the river. the board pairing on the river means any Ax beats you, along with flushes of course, and JT, which Villain can have all 16 combos of.


Here's the thing: when you have a good hand, your thought process should be "how can I gain 'control' of this hand, and make my opponents respond to me".

You had 3 opportunities to do this: you could have raised pre-flop, you could have bet larger/3-bet on the flop, and you could have bet on the turn. By not taking advantage of any of these, you allow your opponents to play exactly how the want to.


Good luck man. I hope i wrote this out well and not super rambly. If you have any questions I'd be happy to talk through this more.

 

[stafil]

If you're still figuring out the game, I would develop a strong rule for yourself where you NEVER open limp. This means that you'll never be the first person to limp into a pot. This actually makes your decision easier when the action is on you: You can either raise, or fold. Find a default raise size pre-flop and use that 100% of the time. This makes your decision even easier - "Either i'm going to raise to 15 cents or fold."

FWIW, you can look up RFI preflop charts online that will show you which range of hands you should be opening based upon which position you are on the table.

Basically, by making this mistake preflop, you've made more and more tough decisions as the hand goes along.

On the flop, you've flopped just about as well as you can hope to. As evidenced through this hand, however, there are a lot of scary turns and rivers where you are no longer sure if you have the best hand. Since that is the case, I would be trying to get as much money into the pot now when we have the most equity. Instead of 15 cents into 48, I would probably bet somewhere between .35 and .40.

By betting .15 cents, you are giving your villains a wonderful price to continue looking for a flush. You want to make this hand as uncomfortable as possible for people who only have a flush draw.

On the turn, I would definitely be barreling. There is a physcological fear "oh no I don't want to be putting tons of money in with a worse hand". But you can't think like that. a 6H is the perfect card to continue betting on. When you check and villain 1 checks and villain 2 bets, I would definitely be raising.


As played i would fold on the river. the board pairing on the river means any Ax beats you, along with flushes of course, and JT, which Villain can have all 16 combos of.


Here's the thing: when you have a good hand, your thought process should be "how can I gain 'control' of this hand, and make my opponents respond to me".

You had 3 opportunities to do this: you could have raised pre-flop, you could have bet larger/3-bet on the flop, and you could have bet on the turn. By not taking advantage of any of these, you allow your opponents to play exactly how the want to.


Good luck man. I hope i wrote this out well and not super rambly. If you have any questions I'd be happy to talk through this more.

Thanks, it makes absolute sense. I don't know why I keep falling into the trap of, "oh, I have a good hand, let me try to trap my opponents by slow playing it". You are absoulutely right I could have made my decisions much easier by being more aggresive early on. At the time, I didn't even realize that I would lose with just an Ace. I guess I have to go back to basics . Thanks for taking time to reply and give some good advice!

 

[Chip Wanter]

When you're playing with the same people over and over again, making traps like that can be quite profitable since you're playing differently than how they've come to expect you to.

With ignition, especially with the anonymous usernames, you should always be trying to get as much money in the pot with a good hand.

 

[Frogzilla]

Why did you lead flop? This is actually called a “donkey bet”

 

[Chip Wanter]

Why did you lead flop? This is actually called a “donkey bet”

I dont mind a donk lead here, although I dislike the sizing. I much prefer a check raise though, and make it large. Like if #5 bet .30 cents, i.d bet maybe 1.05 or. 1.10.

With current stack sizes, that makes it plausible that you could shove on safe turn cards (like 6h!)

 

[DrStrange]

Late to the thread . . . .

Let's start by noting this is an on-line hand not live poker. No idea if HUDs are in play, but if so, Hero is at a massive disadvantage not running a HUD. On-line poker is vastly tougher than live poker. And the lines people take need to reflect the environment.

In a normal live play thread, I would take issue with the "never limp preflop, fold or raise" advice. Hero is well off trying to manipulate the Stack-to-Pot-Ratio (SPR) in a live game. But in on-line poker the HUD players will pick up on Hero's betting tell and exploit it.

Preflop - Hero need to raise or fold. KQo is not a speculative hand, it is a "top pair" kind of hand. No shame in folding - KQo is roughly a tenth percentile hand and prone to domination if playing a big pot [ KQo < AQ and KQo < AK ]

That flop might seem good, but it is not. Hero might win a small pot but if the action gets heavy, bottom two pair is generally a loser. Leading out on this flop isn't unreasonable. The sizing seems a bit small to me, but on-line norms might see a 1/3rd pot bet as the way to go these days.

The min-raise should set off all sorts of alarms. Not so likely the player #6 is bluffing with both the original raiser in the pot and Hero as well. Plus a tiny min-raise isn't much of a bluff. Normally I would not give such a tight range, but I fear JT is exactly #6's holding. Maybe Qx of diamonds. Maybe some slow played preflop monster that is now a set. Bottom line, I think this is a fine time to fold.

When #5 calls the second time, I scratch my head. AJ? Two-pair / set? JT himself? He could be as big a threat to Hero as #6. Not that additional threats are needed.

Hero gets another chance to fold on the turn, he should take it. Bluffing ranges fade away strongly after the flop betting sequences.

And yes, the river puts the last nail in the coffin, but it didn't matter. Hero was dead on the flop.

DrStrange

 

[Chip Wanter]

Just want to point out theres a difference between never limping and never open-limping. I would stick by my recommendation as a new player.

Great insight!

 

[Frogzilla]

And yes, the river puts the last nail in the coffin, but it didn't matter. Hero was dead on the flop.

My reading of the OP- sounds like Hero led a small river bet and got two folds? If so, possibly missed flush/gutshots by both. Doesn’t matter too much, it’s one hand and it can’t validate (or invalidate) a strategy, especially at these stakes.

 

[stafil]

This is Bovada, so no player statistics or HUD.

Not sure what exactly I was thinking when betting the flop, but looking it again maybe I wanted to protect my hand against straight and flush draws.

Yeah, the more I read your replies the more I understand how bad I play my hands. Thanks, very educational.