Tourney Bounties for rebuys?

CO0LHand

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So I am relatively new to running tournament style games and I plan on running mine with bounties now to track who has the most knockouts in a game. I allow rebuys for the first two hours of the tournament but want to know if you guys count only the initial KO or if I should give the player another bounty chip when they rebuy.

Thanks.
 

Mr Tree

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Personally if I did a bounty in a rebuy tournament every buy in would include the bounty.

Ex. $50 buy in with $40 in pot and $10 bounty. If you rebuy it should be another $50 with the same split.
 

bergs

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Right - you want the bounties to count in the rebuys as well because the person that knocks out a player that rebought deserves that bounty chip as much as the guy that knocked him out the first time.

I run a $120 tourney at the BBOTB and it's $100 to the prize pool and $20 to the bounty. One rebuy is allowed the first hour and it's $120, and you get another bounty chips. The number of bounty chips should equal the number of initial tourney buyins + rebuys.
 

Mr. Cheese

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What both of the above said. With a bounty chip tourney ever player needs to have a bounty chip or they technically shouldn't be playing. Every rebuy requires a bounty chip.
 

BGinGA

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I've done it both ways. Some events include a new bounty chip with each buy-in, and players collect bounty chips whenever they felt another player.

Other events have only one bounty chip per player, and a player only loses his/her bounty chip when knocked out of the tournament. There are a couple of minor effects caused by this variation; 1) it promotes re-buys (vs not re-buying) to some degree because re-buying acts to 'protect' the previously-purchased bounty chip, and 2) it lessens the value of players taking early knock-out shots at players during the re-buy period since the bounty chip typically isn't up for grabs.

Neither method is really better than the other. The 'one bounty per stack' method does effectively increase the cost of the event for the participants, if that is an issue or concern. For some groups it is, for others it is not.

However, if the bounty chips have no cash value and are used simply to track knock-outs (which are subsequently awarded points or something), then I prefer one bounty per player (instead of one bounty per stack). Every 20 player tournament will always have 20 bounty chips (and related points) up for grabs, and it won't vary dependent upon how many re-buys are purchased.

I've also ran tournaments where the bounty chip purchase is optional. Players who want to participate (and spend the $$) can, and those not interested are not forced to take part.
 

links_slayer

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I've also ran tournaments where the bounty chip purchase is optional. Players who want to participate (and spend the $$) can, and those not interested are not forced to take part.

What happens when a player that chose not to buy a bounty chip knocks out someone that did buy one? Sorry if this is a n00b question - I don't think I've ever played in a tourney with an optional bounty :)
 

atomiktoaster

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What happens when a player that chose not to buy a bounty chip knocks out someone that did buy one? Sorry if this is a n00b question - I don't think I've ever played in a tourney with an optional bounty :)

The knocked out player keeps the bounty, generally. Though that makes for some interesting EV situations as a short stack, now that I think about it. I'm not sure having an incentive to bust out to particular players is great for the game.
 

BGinGA

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What happens when a player that chose not to buy a bounty chip knocks out someone that did buy one? Sorry if this is a n00b question - I don't think I've ever played in a tourney with an optional bounty :)

Like Toaster said, the bounty player retains his chip (and cashes it in) if knocked out by a non-bounty player.

One of our leagues features both a forced $5 bounty and an optional $20 'super' bounty. The two bounty chips are different colors. There is also a $20 'house' bounty which is placed on the head of the previous tournament winner (funded by the club) -- but you must participate in the super bounty to be eligible to collect it.
 

Mental Nomad

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Though that makes for some interesting EV situations as a short stack, now that I think about it. I'm not sure having an incentive to bust out to particular players is great for the game.

It's definitely different, but I don't think it's bad for the game. It just adds another factor to consider. It's trickiest when you're trying to guess whether a third player's action was influenced by the bounty.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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Like Toaster said, the bounty player retains his chip (and cashes it in) if knocked out by a non-bounty player.

One of our leagues features both a forced $5 bounty and an optional $20 'super' bounty. The two bounty chips are different colors. There is also a $20 'house' bounty which is placed on the head of the previous tournament winner (funded by the club) -- but you must participate in the super bounty to be eligible to collect it.

What happens if a person with a super bounty is short, and shoves and gets called by two people, both of whom have the shover covered, but only one of whom also has a super-bounty chip. What happens to the super-bounty of the short stack if the non-super bounty person wins the hand, but the other super-bounty person would have also beaten the short stack? Inquiring minds want to know...
 

BGinGA

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What happens if a person with a super bounty is short, and shoves and gets called by two people, both of whom have the shover covered, but only one of whom also has a super-bounty chip. What happens to the super-bounty of the short stack if the non-super bounty person wins the hand, but the other super-bounty person would have also beaten the short stack? Inquiring minds want to know...

Pretty simple.

If all-in, a player's bounty chip goes in the pot (true of any bounty tournament). If there is more than one main pot, a player's bounty chip goes into the latest pot which he is fighting for (also true of any bounty tournament). Whoever wins the pot containing the bounty chip wins the bounty chip (again, true of any bounty tournament).

As stated earlier, if a bounty player is knocked out by a non-bounty player, the bounty player retains his/her chip. In your scenario, the super-bounty player was knocked out by a non-bounty player and therefore retains his/her bounty chip. Both super-bounty players lost the hand, but only one had a super-bounty chip at risk. The other super-bounty player won nothing, and is entitled to nothing.
 

CO0LHand

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Thanks for all the advice guys. You answered all my questions and even answered a number of them I didn't even know to ask yet!

Much appreciated.
 

Poker Zombie

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Voice to the contrary:

I do not award a payout if the bounty rebuys. To play a rules lawyer here:

Me and Mrs Zombie buy in. I get short stacked. I dump my remaining chips to Mrs Zombie. Now I rebuy, Mrs. Zombie gets free chips, we don't lose that bounty. Better yet, I dump chips first hand to Mrs Zombie. She now has 2x stack, we are EV neutral on the bounty, and I buy back in.

Not saying I would do it. I'm just saying the door is open, nobody is home, and the stack of money is visible from the street.
 

Mental Nomad

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Thought-provoking argument, and I like the idea of the bounty only going to the person who "really" knocks someone out of the tournament...

On the other hand, to be fair, in your chip-dumping example, what's really changed by the bounty rule? The dumping is more about the dumping, and the difference for with/without bounty is just a minor side-effect. I don't see how the bounty ever helps the dumpers, and removing it doesn't really hurt them.
 

Poker Zombie

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It's true, you always have to be vigilant against chip dumping, and the second case is a rather severe example, but the first case shows a more likely dump scenario where the dumper is just "protecting" their bounty, provided that a) they were already planning to rebuy, and b) they are in the situation to dump to their "partner" (usually a spouse).
 

BGinGA

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I didn't quite understand your initial explanation, but now I get it:

With the bounty-per-stack method, a player about to re-buy is more likely to chip-dump to a friendly player to keep their current bounty chip "in the family". With the bounty-per-player method, that same player faces no bounty-loss penalty when busting out and re-buying, and would have less financial incentive to chip-dump.
 

TexRex

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Some have touched on this, but let me be direct. We track KO's in all of our games, but only about 25% of the time do we have a bounty. The problem with using a chip (or any other tangible object) is the possibility that 2, 3, or 4 players would split it. For that reason, we just write down who KO'd who. The only exception is once a year we have a bounty tournament where the person who collects the bounty is the first to either put a player all-in, or the first to call a player's all-in. Then the bounty chip actually makes sense. I'm not opposed to bounty chips, and ties in KO'ing a player are somewhat rare, but they do happen.
 

BGinGA

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Based on our experience, ties for knockouts happen in less than 1% of the tournaments, which is a ship-load of hands. In over 400 tournament events over the course of 13 years, we've had exactly two instances of players tied when knocking out another player. Both instances were NLHE tournaments, where the bounty cash was split between the two winning players, and both players received credit for the knock-out for tracking purposes.


...the person who collects the bounty is the first to either put a player all-in...
No player can 'put a player all-in', so I'll assume you are referring to a player calling all-in to a previous wager larger than his remaining chip stack. I see a problem with that scenario....

So what happens if player A bets 5000, player B raises to 6200 all-in, player C calls 4500 all-in, and player A calls the extra 1200 -- and then player C loses to the nut straight held by both players A and B (with AK)? Both players knocked out player C equally, and both should receive credit for doing so. To award the KO to either A or B only would be unfair. Makes no difference how the betting transpired beforehand.

 

Mental Nomad

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I didn't quite understand your initial explanation, but now I get it:

With the bounty-per-stack method, a player about to re-buy is more likely to chip-dump to a friendly player to keep their current bounty chip "in the family". With the bounty-per-player method, that same player faces no bounty-loss penalty when busting out and re-buying, and would have less financial incentive to chip-dump.

Right, I get the logic - it's sound. But to me, the flaw is this: when someone is short-stacked and ready to re-buy and they're in a hand with a "friendly," they're already likely to dump and rebuy. I don't see the bounty effect making "the difference" in the decision; whichever set of rules you use, the bounty is "moot", so they decision on whether or not to dump doesn't rest on the bounty rule.

I'm trying to think of other bounty rules setups that might actually work to dissuade chip dumping, but it's hard to contrive something that works, yet is still simple to explain and play.
 

TexRex

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BG, we've tracked KO's in 31 tournaments to date. We've had 3 ties. I agree they are rare, but they do happen. Two of those instances were the same hand that involved 4 players, two of whom were all-in. That was easy -- we credited each player with 1 KO by crediting one with KO'ing one player and the other with KO'ing the second player. We did that only because it was faster than writing both names down twice and it had the same net effect. The other time each player got 1/2 of a KO.

In all but one tournament a year, we split bounties. If 2 players KO a player, each gets 1/2; if 3, each gets 1/3; and if 4, all get 1/4. We write them down. There's nothing wrong with using an object, but it does have the issue of splits being an issue. There are several ways to handle splits. Some give each player full credit for the KO. Others split it like we do. Neither is right or wrong; they are just two ways of handling the issue.

We have one tournament a year where there are no split bounties. Players know the rules before the game. In that one tournament, the special rules are part of the invitation, so anyone who comes is presumed to have read and agreed to those rules. The special rules are well-known to all players and reviewed before the game verbally. Thus, no one can claim it's unfair. They can claim they don't like it, but they can't claim it's unfair because it's known in advance. We've played that tournament 3 times and have yet to have a tie. It's also the one time per year we use a chip designated a bounty chip.

In the situation you describe, the first player to bet enough to have put C all in, if C calls and loses, wins the bounty. Since A's bet was enough to have put C all-in, and A was the first to make such a bet, A would win the bounty. Changing the facts slightly, if A bet 4000, then B went all-in with 6200, and C called 4500 all-in, then A called B's all-in, B would win the bounty since he was the first to call the amount of C's all-in and A's bet was not enough to have put C all-in. Since A knew the rule going in, if he wanted to collect the bounty, he should have bet enough to put C all-in. In any other tournament of the year for us, A and B would each get credit for 1/2 of a KO.
 

BGinGA

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Tex, I have a lot of respect for you and your organization, but that is one of the most stupid rules I've ever seen. And worse, it's totally unnecessary. Just because it's published and known beforehand doesn't make it fair.
 

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Actually, I like the rule. But he's only describing C's bounty - A would obviously win B's bounty, as well, if A won.

Basically, I see it this way:

A bet 4000, which was not enough to put C at risk of busting out, because C had 4500.
B raised it to 6200, which put C at risk, and C called this bet with their 4500.
C called A's bet and part of B's raise; B's raise put him at risk.

So if A and B split the pot, B was the aggressor. In my playbook, the odd chip goes to the aggressor. The bounty is just another odd chip.

On the other hand, if it went this way:

A bets 5000, enough to put C at risk of busting out, because C had 4500.
B raised it to 6200.
C calls, A calls.

Now A made the bet which put C at risk. C didn't call B's raise, C only called A's bet.
A and B split the pot.... now you have a dilemma - does A get the bounty, for creating the bust-out bet? Or is it split between B and C, since both were aggressors? Or do you give it to B, because he was final aggressor? (And final aggressor is debatable, since he A did not voluntarily call; he had no option to raise any more, and B's bet was not a complete raise.)
 

BGinGA

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I think you adequately described why I think the rule is unnecessary and stupid. Whoever wins the pot containing the bounty chip should win the bounty. Who bet what/when/where is irrelevant.

And a bounty is not an odd chip, it's value CAN be split.
 

TexRex

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BG, I appreciate the kind comments, and feel the same toward you regarding respect for your group. One hazard of discussing rules is them being discussed out of the context in which those rules are used.

Here is the context of that rule. It's one of our "pirate" rules for pirate night. That's a special night that does have some special rules. It's supposed to be quirky. It adds some additional issues to deciding whether to put players all-in because it affects both the bounty amount and the KO credit, though honestly the KO credit is a very small issue in the scheme of things. It's in the spirit of being greedy pirates and in the context of that special event. It's actually fun and players have actually asked to use it more than once a year. The reality is it has little impact on the game, but it does cause players to either think through perhaps risk trying to push a low stack all-in in hopes of being the one to collect the bounty, or ignoring it and just play normally and not take extra risk. The bounty ($5) is way less than the buy-in. It does affect players in the bounty amount, and in the KO credit. As we agree, split KO's are relatively rare, but that night, we just don't allow them at all. It could, if two players were otherwise even through 12 games, cause the one who collected that KO to win our Bounty Hunter Award because he won a bounty that night that would otherwise have been a chop. However, that's unlikely to happen for several reasons, but it could happen.

That rule does not apply to any other tournament in the year. You are right that the value of a bounty can be split, even if the bounty chip itself cannot be split.
 

Mental Nomad

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And a bounty is not an odd chip, it's value CAN be split.

Good point. Inconveniently split, unless you pay them off as earned, but splittable. Then again, if you save the bounties for later, how may split bounties could there be to remember? Not frequent...
 

BGinGA

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Ah, context is everything. AARRRRGH!

Carry on, matey.

300x300.jpg
 

Mr Tree

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Great. I just read this thread and thought much ado about something not likely to happen. So now you know it will happen five times at S@P
 

BGinGA

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These would make good bounty chips for your game, Tex:
jolly_roger_pirate_wheel_poker_chip_set-r2df3949159454a80be3b6859c54135d8_i3iid_8byvr_512.jpg


Or these pieces of silver:


pirates3.jpg
 

TexRex

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I've actually seen both and thought of it. There are also the Tortuga Coast Privateer chips that have bounty chips. What is the first one from?
 
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