bottom set on the button, cash 2/5

bentax1978

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So we ended up spending the night in Niagara Falls on Monday night on the drive back from Toronto. The wife and kids were tired and went to bed relatively early that night, so of course I had no choice but to wander over to the Fallsview Casino and play cards until 2:30am :D

So about 4 hours into the session I got dealt pocket 3's on the button. I believe the table was 8 handed at this point, mostly decent players, lots of regulars. My stack was around $550, slightly up for the night. I would say my image at the table was tight/aggressive. I took down most of the pots I played past the flop, with the exception of a decent size pot that I misplayed when I called $20 (turn) and then $100 on the river after making my river flush on a paired turn board (but that's another story).

So on to the hand, I'm curious how others might have played it.

Hero is on button with about $550, dealt :3s: :3d:.
SB has about $600 as well.
BB has both of us covered (around $1200).

A few players limp in, action is on Hero who calls $5 with pocket 3's. SB raises to $20. This was standard for SB who raised that amount a high percentage of the time, seemingly regardless of her position, especially if there were multiple limpers. BB, calls the extra $15, everyone else folds to me. About $55 in the pot, Hero call the extra $15.

3 to the flop, $70 in the pot.

Flop is :ah: :8c: :3c:

SB checks, BB bets $55. Action is on Hero. Should he call or raise?
 
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Trihonda

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I'd vote for a raise here to maybe $120. You might up against AK, or suited club connectors? AK might call, but if SB is on a draw, make em pay to see a card.
 

DrStrange

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Let's start by seeing when Hero gets pot committed. If Hero calls and SB folds, the pot is $180 and Hero has $475 left. I say not pot committed on a bad turn / jam by BB. If hero raises, lets say to $120 and sb folds then the pot is $310 and hero has $410. I'd say that is barely pot commitment under adverse conditions. So, Hero is committed if he does anything more than call.

Does hero want to be committed to the hand with bottom set? I think so.

Could the villains go crazy with a hand not a set? Two pair is weakly plausible, but a flush draw or AK or top pair plus flush draw might get overly excited.

So I think hero should raise here and plan on pot commitment. $120 is too small (that is a $65 raise into a $180 pot). I'd go $150+ Let's say $180 all day.

DrStrange
 

kirchhausen

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I kind of like the call here. Even if SB folds, the pot is $180 with $475 in effective stacks behind. If board is not a club, BB fires out on the turn say $130, you can then jam for $345 behind into a pot of $440. If a club comes, you can re-evaluate. If BB slows it down, he probably wasn't calling a check raise anyway.
 

Ben

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Need reads on BB. Unless he's a significantly LAGgy/action player I'm just calling the $55 - raising here after limp/calling OTB is going to look super-strong (aces up minimum) and this guy would be right to dump most of his range, unless he has reason to believe that you're playing back at him and/or is the type to just put it in with something like AJ here regardless. Clubs are a pretty small part of his range and we can still ship the turn if he fires again.
 

bentax1978

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So hero was torn between calling (with minor hopes of the SB raising, which was possible given her previous play) and raising to $160. Hero was willing to commit to the pot, so at this point it was more about trying to extract max value while accepting the risk of others improving. In the end (which consisted of about 2-3 seconds after it was his turn to act), hero decides to roll the dice and just call the $55. SB also calls.

$235 in the pot.

Turn is :qd:

SB checks. BB bets out $175. Now what?
 

Forty4

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I'm starting to wonder about that. Could the BB have AA? Makes sense to just call the raise out of position with a bunch of limpers to go. No point in re-raising to isolate the SB pre. Would he fire on the turn with anything less than two pair after two callers? I realize we beat two pair but I can see the line for AA being to flat the pre in the BB with a few limpers behind. I think with AK you would want to isolate out of position.
 

bentax1978

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No need to wait for too many replies here as I have a feeling "jam" is going to be the common theme. And jam is what hero did, all in for another $285 on top (I guess I only had 530 to start the hand now that I'm recalling each bet size).

SB folded with a "yup" under her breath, implying that she saw that coming. BB took a solid minute going back and forth in his head before ultimately putting me on bottom set, showed his A8, and folded.

So while it was a nice pot hero picked up, I can't help but wonder if I could/should have played it differently. BB made the comment that he would have pushed back and reraised if I raised the flop, but obviously I didn't know that at the time, nor can I be certain that if that's really the case.
 

atomiktoaster

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I'm assuming this is one of those threads where we all end up going "ah, damn. Set over set. Bad luck there. Time to rebuy." Since that's the case, might as well go along with the "shove" crowd.
 

detroitdad

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No need to wait for too many replies here as I have a feeling "jam" is going to be the common theme. And jam is what hero did, all in for another $285 on top (I guess I only had 530 to start the hand now that I'm recalling each bet size).

SB folded with a "yup" under her breath, implying that she saw that coming. BB took a solid minute going back and forth in his head before ultimately putting me on bottom set, showed his A8, and folded.

So while it was a nice pot hero picked up, I can't help but wonder if I could/should have played it differently. BB made the comment that he would have pushed back and reraised if I raised the flop, but obviously I didn't know that at the time, nor can I be certain that if that's really the case.

I'm raising the flop in hopes of getting to a head to head match up. I'm not a fan of playing a flop three handed. I'm still learning though :)
 

bentax1978

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I'm assuming this is one of those threads where we all end up going "ah, damn. Set over set. Bad luck there. Time to rebuy." Since that's the case, might as well go along with the "shove" crowd.

Not this time. This was more of a how much did I leave on the table with bottom set vs top two thread. I firmly believe that additional money you don't win in situations like this, that perhaps you should have, is the same as losing money (and just as detrimental to your overall game/bankroll).
 

grandgnu

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On the flop I just call, raising just looks too strong. By calling you can easily be repping a weaker Ace than your opponent, making them think they're taking you to value-town when they continue firing on a non-scary turn.

So I think you played it just fine. Easy ship on the turn given stack and pot sizes.
 

detroitdad

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On the flop I just call, raising just looks too strong. By calling you can easily be repping a weaker Ace than your opponent, making them think they're taking you to value-town when they continue firing on a non-scary turn.

So I think you played it just fine. Easy ship on the turn given stack and pot sizes.

Again, I don't think I'm any "next level player" or anything. With the SB still to act I'm just not comfortable with calling here and letting two opponents chase the turn.
 

bentax1978

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On the flop I just call, raising just looks too strong. By calling you can easily be repping a weaker Ace than your opponent, making them think they're taking you to value-town when they continue firing on a non-scary turn.

So I think you played it just fine. Easy ship on the turn given stack and pot sizes.

Looking too strong was a primary concern with raising the flop. Given my table image thus far, I felt like raising was basically announcing that I had at least two pair.
 

bentax1978

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I think part of the reason I am wondering if I played it sub-optimally is because BB called out my bottom set and folded when I jammed the turn. He was getting 3-1 to call 285 into an 870 pot with two pair, so he was obviously somewhat convinced by my actions that he was beat.
 

kirchhausen

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I think you played it fine. BB is obviously exploitable if he showed he can lay down Aces up on this board.
 

grandgnu

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Again, I don't think I'm any "next level player" or anything. With the SB still to act I'm just not comfortable with calling here and letting two opponents chase the turn.

BB bet $55 into a $70 pot. I guess I'm just not usually expecting to see the entire field call that bet in the games I play, as it's pretty significant.

I actually expect most of the time to be heads-up against the BB in a spot like this.

I think part of the reason I am wondering if I played it sub-optimally is because BB called out my bottom set and folded when I jammed the turn. He was getting 3-1 to call 285 into an 870 pot with two pair, so he was obviously somewhat convinced by my actions that he was beat.

It appears BB is a decent player capable of reading situations and laying down fairly big hands. A lot of fish would think "I gots two pair, huuur-duuuuur!" and stack off to you there.

If you had raised the flop, Villian might get away from it there and you miss out on the turn bet he made (although that's usually more when villain was raising AK/AQ pre rather than happening to have a perfect hand to potentially pay you off with two two against bottom set flopped)
 

Forty4

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If you are factoring the conversion to USD then you could say you left money on the table, but that's about all.
 

Ben

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The only way this is even a question IMO is if the villain had the exact hand that he did. You played it fine.
 

Forty4

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So hero was torn between calling (with minor hopes of the SB raising, which was possible given her previous play) and raising to $160.

If you had raised the flop, Villian might get away from it there and you miss out on the turn bet he made (although that's usually more when villain was raising AK/AQ pre rather than happening to have a perfect hand to potentially pay you off with two two against bottom set flopped)

Given these two facts you actually made more because the SB called the $55 as well which wouldn't have happened.
 

trever

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Looking too strong was a primary concern with raising the flop. Given my table image thus far, I felt like raising was basically announcing that I had at least two pair.
A turn raise/shove looks (to me anyway) a lot stronger than a flop raise. I was in the "raise the flop camp", but once you flat the flop, I'd be tempted to flat the turn too. But that depends on how aggressive you think the BB is.
 

Chippy McChiperson

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I don't know, you raise the flop, and you probably lose the small blind. Big blind calls, but is he calling another big bet on the turn? Maybe the only way you make more money is raising the flop, checking the turn, and firing the river (like a missed flush draw may do). There are many ways to skin a cat, this cat just happened to have pretty tough skin.
 

DrStrange

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There are roughly as many Ax flush draw hands as there are aces-up hands - ten flush draws and twelve A8 / A3 combinations. All of those could be in either villain's hand. My question to Hero - If I told you a villain holds one of those 22 hands do you want to slow play or bet?

And that is only the nut draw (top pair + flush draw). Hands like KQs or QTs or JTs are quite possible as well - all of whom like the turn card. And better villains should easily place those hands in Hero's range (There are more Broadway flush draws in this hand than sets by the way, six draws plus five sets.)

Hero could slow play both the flop and turn when the draw could have been charged more only to have the river come and either beat hero or have villain snap fold a busted draw and missed value that way. (On a lucky day villain fires a river bluff here.) My rule of thumb is slow playing sets is less profitable than playing them fast. This thread could just as easily be "I slow played my set and the Villain jams on the flushing river card, now what?"

One thing I know now - Hero should be betting his draws hard. Even stone-cold bluffing in good situations. This is a 100BB game, not a place to be folding top two pair. Hero has too much respect, let's go steal some pots.

DrStrange
 

bentax1978

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There are roughly as many Ax flush draw hands as there are aces-up hands - ten flush draws and twelve A8 / A3 combinations. All of those could be in either villain's hand. My question to Hero - If I told you a villain holds one of those 22 hands do you want to slow play or bet?

And that is only the nut draw (top pair + flush draw). Hands like KQs or QTs or JTs are quite possible as well - all of whom like the turn card. And better villains should easily place those hands in Hero's range (There are more Broadway flush draws in this hand than sets by the way, six draws plus five sets.)

Hero could slow play both the flop and turn when the draw could have been charged more only to have the river come and either beat hero or have villain snap fold a busted draw and missed value that way. (On a lucky day villain fires a river bluff here.) My rule of thumb is slow playing sets is less profitable than playing them fast. This thread could just as easily be "I slow played my set and the Villain jams on the flushing river card, now what?"

I agree about the slowplaying when it comes to hands like bottom set (or two pair), especially on a potential flush draw board. I have also found in my experience that fast playing them is both more profitable than slow playing them, and provides a smaller variance. Right or wrong, I think the two things that stopped me raising the initial flop bet were 1) my current table image (see below) and 2) the fact that I thought there was at least a small possibility that small blind might actually raise after I flat called. While I realize in hindsight that wasn't terribly likely, she was a bit crazy/aggressive since she sat down and at the time I thought it could happen.

One thing I know now - Hero should be betting his draws hard. Even stone-cold bluffing in good situations. This is a 100BB game, not a place to be folding top two pair. Hero has too much respect, let's go steal some pots.

For what it's worth, I typically do bet my drawing hands hard and throw in the bluff given the right circumstances, in part because I hate running into a situation where I finally hit a big hand and then get no action. However for one reason or another, this session just hadn't played out that way over the first few hours. Maybe it was a function of being tired at the end of our vacation, maybe it was playing in a new card room at what seemed like a table of regulars, maybe it was getting a disproportional number of crappy starting hands (39o type hands), or some combo of all of those factors. Whatever the reason, I was sure that at that point in time, people at the table were likely going to treat a raise (either on the flop or turn) with more respect than I wanted them to.
 
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