Blind vs Blind (1 Viewer)

Kain8

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Final table of our league freeroll. We are 6 handed, Hero has a stack of 45,000 with the blinds at 600 / 1200 and is in the big blind. Small blind is the chip leader sitting on a stack of around 65,000. Small blind has been raising a bit more often since we got to 6 handed play, trying to exert pressure on the other players as top 4 get paid out.

Action folds to the villain in the small blind and raises to 3,500. Hero looks down at :6s::8s:. To save time and drama, Hero calls the 3,500.

Flop comes down :6d::4c::9h: and the villain leads for another 3,500. Hero's action?
 
Hero calls the 3,500, and we go to a turn.

Pot: 14,000

Hero Stack: 38,000

Board :6d::4c::9h::6c:


Villain now leads for 6,700. Hero's action?
 
This is one of the cards that changes my plan to take the reins of aggression. Now you're way ahead of all but a small portion of hands, and a raise will make it too obvious you have trips or better. Moreover, Villain probably isn't calling off a whole lot of chips unless he has trips beaten.

New plan: flat this bet too, like you can't drop an open-ended straight draw or a pair of nines or something. Pot will be 27,400 going into the river, with 31,300 effective stacks. The call will look pretty weak and may entice a shove or big bet on the end from a much wider variety of hands than if you raise the turn.

If Villain is trying to be a chip bully, it's going to backfire here. (Or he's going to turn over 99 and stack you, but those are the breaks.)
 
Most of the time I would call here, but about 30% of the time I might put in a small raise to build the pot. If he has any piece he will call. He might jam too which would stink and you might get stacked if he has 9s or a better 6.
 
This seems like a pretty straightforward raise. It makes sense to have a raising range here and every 6 should be in it.
 
I like the call and go to the river. If the small blind is a bully he should be there as well and see how to get the most value.
 
Hero calls the 6,700.

Pot: 27,400

Hero's stack: 31,300


Board :6d::4c::9h::6c: :qd:


Villain now leads for 16,600. Hero's action?
 
I call. Not good enough to lay down trips here, but smart enough to know that Villain is only calling a raise if he has them beat.
 
1) We are 6 handed,
2) Hero has a stack of 45,000 with the blinds at 600 / 1200 and is in the big blind.
3) Small blind is the chip leader sitting on a stack of around 65,000.
4) villain in the small blind and raises to 3,500. Hero looks down at :6s::8s:. To save time and drama, Hero calls the 3,500.
5) Flop comes down :6d::4c::9h: and the villain leads for another 3,500.

He's out of position and lead out pre & post flop. So... is that indicative of a premium hand or is that falling into his current aggression pattern. Without looking at the rest of the thread I put him on QQ or JJ.

Your behind with only 5 outs to save you from a potential overpair unless you catch runner runner for a straight. Risky business. I'm leaning toward laying this down.

6) Hero calls the 3,500, and we go to a turn. Pot: 14,000
7) Board :6d::4c::9h::6c:
8) Villain now leads for 6,700

That you didn't lay down now seems smarter. ;) Smooth call given I don't put him on 9,9.

9) Hero calls the 6,700.
10) Board :6d::4c::9h::6c::qd:
11) Hero's stack: 31,300. Pot: 27,400
12) Villain now leads for 16,600.

Ugh. The likelihood he'd fire at the pot yet again was high but it would have been a lot better had a blank hit than that Q. You might be looking at a set of queens at this point. Hard to do so, but call. You're crippled but not out if you loose. Even if you fold his chip advantage will still be significant.
 
Queen is a safe river, but raising seems like a game theory disaster unless he happens to have q9. Otherwise the only way he has a q here is if he barrelled twice with air and decided to go for value on the river when he caught a card. If he doesn't have that play in him, he really can only call with AA, KK, or trip sixes or better. I think most of his call a raise range has you tied or beaten, so I think flatting is better as played.

This would have been the argument for raising the turn, btw. At least there you can get value from straight draws or a 9, but other than an 8, there just aren't many rivers you can bet for value.

So as played, I think you call and expect to usually win, you just won't be shown many hands that could have called a raise.
 
You call the flop and turn to appear weak so he'll bluff (or make a thin value bet) on the river. Given the board texture, a raise is liable to mostly shut out those bluffy and thin hands, leaving Villain calling with only the top of his range. Your value play is the fact that he bet out. Just flat the river bet.

He's out of position and lead out pre & post flop. So... is that indicative of a premium hand or is that falling into his current aggression pattern. Without looking at the rest of the thread I put him on QQ or JJ.



Ugh. The likelihood he'd fire at the pot yet again was high but it would have been a lot better had a blank hit than that Q. You might be looking at a set of queens at this point. Hard to do so, but call. You're crippled but not out if you loose. Even if you fold his chip advantage will still be significant.

What magic ball do you have that allows you to narrow a guy all the way down to QQ or JJ on the flop? Surely, they're in his range, but it's a much broader range than just those two hands.

Same with the monsters-under-the-bed thinking on the end. "Oh no, a face card came! This guy could have hit his two-outer!" Yes, he could have queens full, but it's 3 possible combinations out of a long list of hands he could have. Even some of the hands Villain may think he's betting for value in this spot (AA, KK, AQ, KQ, JJ) don't beat trips, never mind all the valueless hands he could be bluffing with. This is not a hard call. It's basically automatic.
 
Hero tanks for awhile and eventually puts in the call. But:

1542726124466.png



The Hero was actually the villain in this hand, and vice versa! Oh the craziness!


I was praying for a fold after firing three barrels holding nothing but :jc::td:, but the trips sixes found a call. I tried telling a story of having an overpair on the flop (or at the very least having AQ and nailing the river) but it backfired on me. I took some minor solace in the fact that if my opponent doesn't make trips on the turn, a sizeable turn and river bet would have sent his hand to the muck. Onto the next hand!
 
You call the flop and turn to appear weak so he'll bluff (or make a thin value bet) on the river. Given the board texture, a raise is liable to mostly shut out those bluffy and thin hands, leaving Villain calling with only the top of his range.

I wholly agree this is a good argument for flatting the turn as well. It's just a question of which value source is more likely. 9s and straight draws on the turn or bluffs on the river. Given what villian did, I would lean toward flatting the turn as the better line, I just wanted to point out a possible upside to shoving the turn instead.

I am not sure I love the villian three barrel here.

If hero's usually raising a nine on the flop or turn, then what is villian flatting with? Seems sixes seem to be the top of his flatting range on the flop and turn. It's hard to imagine much pure air here, so it's a 6 or a straight draw to me. Even if he has 9s sometimes if villian has a bluffy image, hero may still have to station with a 9, even if the q is a bit scary.

But you're right, if he didn't improve post flop this probably works on most turn cards. But I think it's okay to shut down after being called twice.
 
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I took some minor solace in the fact that if my opponent doesn't make trips on the turn, a sizeable turn and river bet would have sent his hand to the muck.

If I'm Hero in this hand, I'm raising a lot of turns without the third six. The pair of sixes alone stands to be good on the flop an overwhelming percent of the time against a guy on an aggressive streak who just raised preflop blind-versus-blind and c-bet a nine-high flop. I'm looking at you very suspiciously when I know you're being aggressive and I have position heads-up. Any pair is often the best hand.

Where you really needed to reassess was the flop. What's calling you there? Unless you're up against a guy who routinely floats in spots like this, his range is mostly populated by made hands. Then the turn comes a six. He could have a nine (which he still thinks is good), a six (which is obviously good), or a four (which is less strong but still looks good IMO). He could also have some overpairs and pocket pairs, which again still look good if they looked good on the flop.

That's the tricky thing about the board pairing on the turn in hands like this. It means if you were full of shit on the flop, you're still full of shit.
 
To add some (actual) villain reads:

I am not sure I love the villian(hero) three barrel here.... But I think it's okay to shut down after being called twice.

Updated quote to match plot twist... This was my advice to @Kain8 after he refreshed my memory on the hand. VS this villain I didn't like the 3rd barrel.

Unless you're up against a guy who routinely floats in spots like this...

Narrator: "He was"
 
Updated quote to match plot twist...

Probably better not to switch the hero/villian tags from the original post. It's okay to stick with referring to the poster as villian.

To add some (actual) villain reads:

@Kain8 after he refreshed my memory on the hand. VS this villain I didn't like the 3rd barrel.



Narrator: "He was"

Is hero floating two barrels frequently? How wide is the range where he calls two streets but not three? That's the real way to judge the river play.
 
It depends on their c-bet percentage. You said they're opening wide and playing aggressive, so I assume they're probably C-Betting at a high frequency. Ideally, you're trying to get to show down. Preferably, cheaply as possible given that we have a pretty marginal hand and will likely not improve on most future streets. Our backdoor possibilities aren't that great either; we're only drawing to a backdoor straight. Additionally, there isn't that great of a range advantage here. Especially against a player that's opening wide.

Raising flop is a bit dicey here for the reasons above. We can't realistically represent that many strong hands and if we get shoved over the top on, we're going to really hate the spot. I think we should call flop. If we don't improve on the turn and get led out on again (especially, if it's a card that improves our opponents range), then we should look to fold. If we get checked too, it's a clear spot for a bet, mostly to protect our equity and take control of the betting lead. If we don't improve, we wold bet turn and check river and fold to any aggression. If we improve (e.g. a 6, 7, 8, or 9) or a card peels off that favors our range (e.g. a T or 5) we can look to raise to a lead into and play the river in flow.
 

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