Tourney Blind Structure Adjustments (1 Viewer)

[CraigT78]

Hello all (especially @BGinGA)

I am looking for feedback to adjust my structure a bit. Some feedback from the guys that our game seems to play a little fast in the later levels and that it becomes a bit 'shove-festy'. I was looking to see if I could tweak it a bit. We usually end between level 14 to level 17 now and it usually runs 4 to 4.5 hours. I would like to keep the time length, but was wondering if this was good - or if I should just start the game at 100-200 and adjust the time levels.

Details

10k with unlimited re-buy
Average 4-8 re-buy per game
5k add on at the break (90% take this)
15 to 18 players

Thoughts?

 

[Mojo1312]

IMO, Any 15 to 18 player re-buy tournament designed to end in 4 to 4.5 hours with experienced players will become a little shove festy.

Also, 50% jumps after level 9 is fairly aggressive given the chip stacks.

Adjusting the blind structure would improve the playing time in the middle and later stages of your tournament.

level 10 500/1000
level 11 700/1400
level 12 1000/2000
level 16 4000/8000
level 17 5000/10000
level 18 7000/14000

15 minute levels throughout would add approximately 30 to 35 minutes to your tournament.

Another possible solution:

Eliminate level 1 and shorten the re-buy period by 16 minutes.

Increase the length of your levels to 20 minutes at the 1000/2000 level. This will add approximately 40 minutes to you tournament.

Option C.

Eliminate level 1 and employ 16 minute levels throughout. This will add 15 to 20 minutes to your tournament.

 

[BGinGA]

Issues that may be causing your players to feel rushed towards the end are the shorter blind times (nothing really wrong with that) combined with some pretty hefty blind increases (averaging around 48% over the last few levels played). When down to three- or four-handed, that's a pretty big chunk of the average stack.

There are many ways to alleviate such conditions, but I'd try a three-pronged approach:

1. increase the starting stack size​

This always has a positive mental effect on the players -- even when maintaining the same number of starting big blinds by manipulating the size of the starting blinds.

2. increase the structure's aggression level in the early levels​

This promotes re-buys, and gets the structure moving along so that you can slow it down later while maintaining same desired overall length.

3. significantly reduce the structure's aggression level in the late stages of the event​

Even with shortened blind times, this will help soften the effect of the ever-increasing blinds -- allowing additional play in the later levels, and creating less of a rushed environment.


In your specific case, I recommend the following:

• double the starting stacks (to 20K), while increasing the starting blinds to 50/100 (maintaining the same 200bb starting stacks).
• make the blinds level increases more aggressive during the re-buy period (50-67%, averaging 55% over the first six levels).
• soften the blinds out after the first break, allowing players to settle into a more relaxed pace (33% average increases during L7-L12).
• reduce the blind level times for the duration of the event, but decrease the aggression level even further (20% average increases over the last six levels or so).
• change the blind level times to 15 minutes (L1-L6), 13 minutes (L7-L12), and 11 minutes (L13-end). This will compensate for the relaxed nature of the last two-thirds of the event, allowing it to still finish within your desired 4-4.5 hour time frame. It is highly unlikely to ever go past L19.

I'd also seriously consider either dropping the add-on, or at most, making it only a half-stack for half-price option (10K for half of the original entry cost). Too many chips in play with the relaxed levels from L7 on could risk making the event run long.


Using the above line of thought, try this one on for size -- I think it will meet or exceed the expectations of you and your players:

In particular, look below at how the last several levels (L12+) are a much smoother transition compared to the original structure (blind values doubled for comparison purposes). Even though the BB values are 50% greater at L6 and L7, the increased play opportunity towards the end of the tournament is worth the trade-off -- especially when re-buys are in place (somewhat minimizing the aggressive effects of the early levels).

Put another way, if your current structure is ending between L14 and L16 (8000 and 18000 BB), they are getting 36 minutes of play at those levels. The new structure allows for roughly 66 minutes of play at those blind level amounts (L14-L19), without significantly increasing the length of the tournament.

 

[CraigT78]

Issues that may be causing your players to feel rushed towards the end are the shorter blind times (nothing really wrong with that) combined with some pretty hefty blind increases (averaging around 48% over the last few levels played). When down to three- or four-handed, that's a pretty big chunk of the average stack.

There are many ways to alleviate such conditions, but I'd try a three-pronged approach:

1. increase the starting stack size​

This always has a positive mental effect on the players -- even when maintaining the same number of starting big blinds by manipulating the size of the starting blinds.

2. increase the structure's aggression level in the early levels​

This promotes re-buys, and gets the structure moving along so that you can slow it down later while maintaining same desired overall length.

3. significantly reduce the structure's aggression level in the late stages of the event​

Even with shortened blind times, this will help soften the effect of the ever-increasing blinds -- allowing additional play in the later levels, and creating less of a rushed environment.


In your specific case, I recommend the following:

• double the starting stacks (to 20K), while increasing the starting blinds to 50/100 (maintaining the same 200bb starting stacks).
• make the blinds level increases more aggressive during the re-buy period (50-67%, averaging 55% over the first six levels).
• soften the blinds out after the first break, allowing players to settle into a more relaxed pace (33% average increases during L7-L12).
• reduce the blind level times for the duration of the event, but decrease the aggression level even further (20% average increases over the last six levels or so).
• change the blind level times to 15 minutes (L1-L6), 13 minutes (L7-L12), and 11 minutes (L13-end). This will compensate for the relaxed nature of the last two-thirds of the event, allowing it to still finish within your desired 4-4.5 hour time frame. It is highly unlikely to ever go past L19.

I'd also seriously consider either dropping the add-on, or at most, making it only a half-stack for half-price option (10K for half of the original entry cost). Too many chips in play with the relaxed levels from L7 on could risk making the event run long.


Using the above line of thought, try this one on for size -- I think it will meet or exceed the expectations of you and your players:

View attachment 105718


In particular, look below at how the last several levels (L12+) are a much smoother transition compared to the original structure (blind values doubled for comparison purposes). Even though the BB values are 50% greater at L6 and L7, the increased play opportunity towards the end of the tournament is worth the trade-off -- especially when re-buys are in place (somewhat minimizing the aggressive effects of the early levels).

View attachment 105731

Put another way, if your current structure is ending between L14 and L16 (8000 and 18000 BB), they are getting 36 minutes of play at those levels. The new structure allows for roughly 66 minutes of play at those blind level amounts (L14-L19), without significantly increasing the length of the tournament.

Thanks BGinGA for the time and detail you have provided. I will review this carefully and make some improvements. Just a quick note - I do offer the add-on at 1/2 the entry cost for 1/2 the chips and the guys like it so I will probably keep it. I'm sure I will have some additional questions after reviewing your post. Thanks again! (y) :thumbsup:

 

[CraigT78]

Using the above line of thought, try this one on for size -- I think it will meet or exceed the expectations of you and your players:

View attachment 105718

One question right away is level 14 in your example - did you intend for it to be 7500 instead of 7000 which would be double the small blind? It's the only level that isn't double. Typo or intended?

 

[AWenger]

it usually runs 4 to 4.5 hours. I would like to keep the time length,

IMO, Any 15 to 18 player re-buy tournament designed to end in 4 to 4.5 hours with experienced players will become a little shove festy.

A few years back, I used to play in a weekly weekday tournament in DC that started around 7pm and needed to end around 11:30pm. It had anywhere from 12 to 28 players. As I recall, it was just the nature of a tournament with more than 10-12 players or so, it will almost need to become a shove fest at some point to ensure all eliminations happen within 4.5 hours.

Here's an idea I had before (I don't think I've seen this done elsewhere.) Once the tourney is past the money bubble, could a rule be created to have blind increases slow down based on the number of players left and the size of the BB compared to all the chips left in play. Something based on the rule of thumb that when the BB reaches 4% (1/25th) or 5% (1/20th) of the total chips in play, the tournament should end at that level. That would mean the final 2 players have 25 to 20 BB combined. And it could be backed out from there to some rule that the blind increases slow down once the blinds reach a certain level with 4 or 5 players left, and after that point, blinds only increase on each knockout. That would allow more play at the final table for the players that made it that far to cash.

The rule would be worded something like this (assuming 4 players are paid):

Once 4 players are left, as long as the Big Blind is equal to or greater than 1/40 (or 2.50%) of the total chips in play, (i.e. average stack is 10 Big Blinds with 4 players) the blind increases would stop until the tournament is down to 2 players remaining or until 25 minutes elapses, whichever comes first.
​

Of course, the numbers in bold above are the parameters that could be changed to suit your needs.

 

[BGinGA]

One question right away is level 14 in your example - did you intend for it to be 7500 instead of 7000 which would be double the small blind? It's the only level that isn't double. Typo or intended?

It is intentional. Going with a blind progression of 2500/5000 - 3000/6000 - 3500/7500 - 4500/9000 - 5500/11000 is an increase in total blinds of 20% (L13), 22% (L14), 23% (L15), and 22% (L16). Plugging in a 3500/7000 level instead results in total blind increases of 17% (L14) and 29% (L15) - two numbers well outside of the norm. I was trying to keep the increases within a very narrow range (3%) for L13-L16, and within 7% for Levels 12-17. A variance of 12% is too much, given the relatively small size of the increases.

Not much different in theory than using a 25/75 level, where the big blind is not double the size of the small blind. It's a matter of equalizing the total blind increase percentages per level.

The blind structure I posted shows the percent increase of the big blind for each level (25% for L14 and 20% for L15). It would be more accurate if it displayed the percent increase of the total blinds for each level -- which would be 22% for L14 and 23% for L15. They are usually the same, but not when the small blind is not exactly half of the big blind amount. The total blinds exposure is more accurate than just the big blind amount.

 

[Mojo1312]

@AWenger

I cannot fathom why you would want to choke the later rounds of a tournament as a means of ensuring the game reaches a conclusion by a set deadline, especially if you are hosting a MTT. The 14 to 16 player tournament I hosted typically ended with 35 to 40 big blinds on the table.

Players bought in for 210BB's. Levels 1-4 ran 15 minutes. Levels 5 thru 13 ran 20 minutes and 25 minutes thereafter. The tournament ran approximately 5.5 hours with breaks.

Everyone who plays tournaments on a regular basis knows that your decisions become more important as you progress. Crunching the length of the rounds as a means of drawing a tournament down narrows a players options on how to play their hand. Basically, you are setting up a structure conducive to good play at the early and middle stages of the tournament, only to set the stage for a shove fest at the end. Makes no sense.

(The logic behind this is that fewer players equals more hands, so shortening the blinds actually balances out. IMO, Players who go deep should not have the blinds manipulated against them by the TD.)

So there are three options that I can think of to avoid this situation outside of extending the length of the latter rounds.

Cap the blinds by dividing the number of chips in play by 25, 30, or 40. Freeze the blinds until the bubble is broken, or re-set the blinds when players get to the money. (For example, reverting the blinds back one level.)

 

[CraigT78]

It is intentional. Going with a blind progression of 2500/5000 - 3000/6000 - 3500/7500 - 4500/9000 - 5500/11000 is an increase in total blinds of 20% (L13), 22% (L14), 23% (L15), and 22% (L16). Plugging in a 3500/7000 level instead results in total blind increases of 17% (L14) and 29% (L15) - two numbers well outside of the norm. I was trying to keep the increases within a very narrow range (3%) for L13-L16, and within 7% for Levels 12-17. A variance of 12% is too much, given the relatively small size of the increases.

Not much different in theory than using a 25/75 level, where the big blind is not double the size of the small blind. It's a matter of equalizing the total blind increase percentages per level.

The blind structure I posted shows the percent increase of the big blind for each level (25% for L14 and 20% for L15). It would be more accurate if it displayed the percent increase of the total blinds for each level -- which would be 22% for L14 and 23% for L15. They are usually the same, but not when the small blind is not exactly half of the big blind amount. The total blinds exposure is more accurate than just the big blind amount.

Thank you for the clarification. I am looking forward to trying this new blind structure. Of course I expect the other half of my group will complain the early levels are now too fast

 

[CraigT78]

It is intentional. Going with a blind progression of 2500/5000 - 3000/6000 - 3500/7500 - 4500/9000 - 5500/11000 is an increase in total blinds of 20% (L13), 22% (L14), 23% (L15), and 22% (L16). Plugging in a 3500/7000 level instead results in total blind increases of 17% (L14) and 29% (L15) - two numbers well outside of the norm. I was trying to keep the increases within a very narrow range (3%) for L13-L16, and within 7% for Levels 12-17. A variance of 12% is too much, given the relatively small size of the increases.

Not much different in theory than using a 25/75 level, where the big blind is not double the size of the small blind. It's a matter of equalizing the total blind increase percentages per level.

The blind structure I posted shows the percent increase of the big blind for each level (25% for L14 and 20% for L15). It would be more accurate if it displayed the percent increase of the total blinds for each level -- which would be 22% for L14 and 23% for L15. They are usually the same, but not when the small blind is not exactly half of the big blind amount. The total blinds exposure is more accurate than just the big blind amount.

What would you do for starting stacks?

12-12-7-15 or 12-12-7-10-1? Or something different altogether?

 

[BGinGA]

I'd probably go with 12-12-7-10-1, and use T5000 chips for everything else (7x total for the T25/T100 color-ups, 4x each for 20K re-buys, and 2x each for 10K add-ons). Use three T25K chips to color-up the T500s if you get that far (very unlikely).

You will typically have the following chips in play at tournament end (rough averages):

120 x T500
180 x T1000
80 x T5000
----------
~380 total

or
180 x T1000
80 x T5000
3 x T25000
----------
~260 total

 

[CraigT78]

I'd probably go with 12-12-7-10-1, and use T5000 chips for everything else (7x total for the T25/T100 color-ups, 4x each for 20K re-buys, and 2x each for 10K add-ons). Use three T25K chips to color-up the T500s if you get that far (very unlikely).

You will typically have the following chips in play at tournament end (rough averages):

120 x T500
180 x T1000
80 x T5000
----------
~380 total

or
180 x T1000
80 x T5000
3 x T25000
----------
~260 total

Looking forward to trying this structure out tonight! Thanks for the effort and if needed I'll come back here for modifications. Doing re-buy at 20k and add-on for 10k with 16 players tonight. (y) :thumbsup:

 

[CraigT78]

@BGinGA

Just wanted to report back that we played this out on Friday and it was well received. I just sent an email asking for feedback so I will know more shortly, but I really liked it. We ended at level 18 with a chop for 1st and 2nd. I had the 2nd place finisher dominated, but wanted to play cash - so I threw him an extra $25 to just call it. It might have went to level 19, but not likely. I loved that the early levels had a lot more meaning and the middle and end played much slower.

We hit the final table at level 14 and while it was a bit shove-festy the general consensus was that they got to pick their spots better than before. Obviously at some point you just have to shove.

My only gripe was that there were only 3 re-buys, so our prize pool was several hundred less than usual. We will see if that is a trend next month or just a one off to people playing a little more cautiously with a new structure. I'd increase the buy-in but I would lose several players that I really like having over - so the re-buys are a big pot juicer for me.

Thanks again and if I need any help with tweaks I will let you know! (y) :thumbsup:

 

[CraigT78]

@BGinGA - Looking to adjust my structure a little more. Currently play a 15k starting stack with a 1,500 on time bonus - everyone get the bonus, so effectively 17,500 starting stacks. 20 players with average of 8 rebuy, and 17 add-on for 7,500 each.

Issue is that the game is going over 4.5 hours and I'd like to shorten it to 4 hours. I've tried to adjust from this:

To this:

Does this look okay - or would you suggest other changes? I can send you the excel file if you wish.

 

[CraigT78]

Is the new schedule too aggressive?

 

[BGinGA]

The first structure in post 14 (15% to 100% increases, 35% avg) works out to typical maximum duration at L22, or about 4.6 hours plus breaks (based on your average starting stacks, bonus, re-buys, and add-ons). I think that's probably pretty close to what you are experiencing.

The replacement structure (20% to 67% increases, 41% avg) works out to typical maximum duration at L18, or about 3.8 hours plus breaks (based on the same data as above). Factor in your 35 minutes of breaks and you're at around 4:20 hours, start-to-finish (typical maximum time).

I don't think your new blinds are too aggressive per se, but would offer the suggestion below as an alternate structure to accomplish hitting your time target.

The blind increases below range from 50% to 67% for the first 8 levels, then drop down to between 20% and 43% for the remaining 8 or 9 levels, averaging 44% overall. It also keeps the first 8 levels at 15-minutes duration, with blind level times only dropping to 13 minutes for the next 8 levels (10-minute levels beyond L16). It should work out to a typical maximum duration at L17, or about 3.9 hours plus four 10-minute breaks -- just about the same as your replacement structure, but with a little more consistency across the entire event and longer blind level times from L7 to the end. And if you find it still runs too long, just drop the 13-minute levels down to 12-minutes (slicing off another 8 minutes total time).

I'd still end your re-buy period after L6, at which point it is worth 29BB (based on effective starting stacks, not actual). You can do the add-on then, or wait until the color-up break after L8.

20 players, T15000 starting stacks
(T29K effective stacks, including bonus/re-buys/add-ons)

lvl sb bb
15-minute levels
L1 50 100
L2 75 150
L3 125 250
L4 200 400
- 10-minute break, remove T25 chips
L5 300 600
L6 500 1000
L7 800 1600
L8 1200 2400
- 10-minute break, remove T100 chips
- begin 13-minute levels
L9 1500 3000
L10 2000 4000
L11 2500 5000
L12 3500 7000
- 10-minute break, remove T500 chips
L13 5000 10000
L14 7000 14000
L15 10000 20000
L16 12000 24000
- 10-minute break, remove T1000 chips
- begin 10-minute levels
L17 15000 30000 *** est max EOT
L18 20000 40000
L19 25000 50000
L20 30000 60000

 

[DoubleEagle]

I would change to re-entry and drop the add-on. Don’t need to make structure as aggressive to finish on time.

 

[BGinGA]

From what i understand, Craig's players like the re-buy action and padding the pot with add-ons, and are keen to get to the cash game afterwards. A slightly more aggressive structure -- which really occurs only during the first two hours -- sounds like the perfect solution for them.

Otherwise, I'd agree.... although a 59% structure with 20 minute levels plays out about the same as a 40% structure at 15 minutes. It's not really as extreme as it sounds.

 

[CraigT78]

I would change to re-entry and drop the add-on. Don’t need to make structure as aggressive to finish on time.

From what i understand, Craig's players like the re-buy action and padding the pot with add-ons, and are keen to get to the cash game afterwards. A slightly more aggressive structure -- which really occurs only during the first two hours -- sounds like the perfect solution for them.

Otherwise, I'd agree.... although a 59% structure with 20 minute levels plays out about the same as a 40% structure at 15 minutes. It's not really as extreme as it sounds.

Yup. The tournament is just a warm up to drink up and get to the cash game. A few guys play it serious and want longer levels with smooth transition, but most want to get to the cash game. We had 9 rebuys last night with 17 add-ons. Biggest complaint is that it runs too long, so that's what I'm trying to fix, without it being a luck box shove fest to find a winner.

 

[CraigT78]

The first structure in post 14 (15% to 100% increases, 35% avg) works out to typical maximum duration at L22, or about 4.6 hours plus breaks (based on your average starting stacks, bonus, re-buys, and add-ons). I think that's probably pretty close to what you are experiencing.

The replacement structure (20% to 67% increases, 41% avg) works out to typical maximum duration at L18, or about 3.8 hours plus breaks (based on the same data as above). Factor in your 35 minutes of breaks and you're at around 4:20 hours, start-to-finish (typical maximum time).

I don't think your new blinds are too aggressive per se, but would offer the suggestion below as an alternate structure to accomplish hitting your time target.

The blind increases below range from 50% to 67% for the first 8 levels, then drop down to between 20% and 43% for the remaining 8 or 9 levels, averaging 44% overall. It also keeps the first 8 levels at 15-minutes duration, with blind level times only dropping to 13 minutes for the next 8 levels (10-minute levels beyond L16). It should work out to a typical maximum duration at L17, or about 3.9 hours plus four 10-minute breaks -- just about the same as your replacement structure, but with a little more consistency across the entire event and longer blind level times from L7 to the end. And if you find it still runs too long, just drop the 13-minute levels down to 12-minutes (slicing off another 8 minutes total time).

I'd still end your re-buy period after L6, at which point it is worth 29BB (based on effective starting stacks, not actual). You can do the add-on then, or wait until the color-up break after L8.

20 players, T15000 starting stacks
(T29K effective stacks, including bonus/re-buys/add-ons)

lvl sb bb
15-minute levels
L1 50 100
L2 75 150
L3 125 250
L4 200 400
- 10-minute break, remove T25 chips
L5 300 600
L6 500 1000
L7 800 1600
L8 1200 2400
- 10-minute break, remove T100 chips
- begin 13-minute levels
L9 1500 3000
L10 2000 4000
L11 2500 5000
L12 3500 7000
- 10-minute break, remove T500 chips
L13 5000 10000
L14 7000 14000
L15 10000 20000
L16 12000 24000
- 10-minute break, remove T1000 chips
- begin 10-minute levels
L17 15000 30000 *** est max EOT
L18 20000 40000
L19 25000 50000
L20 30000 60000

Thanks @BGinGA - I'll load this in to TD and give it a go in March!