"Big" PLO8 Hand Online - Biggest Pot in the Game for the Last 12 Months (2 Viewers)

[grebe]

I probably do exactly as you did....disgustingly call the flop bet.

TURN: I sit up a little straighter in my chair, look around and say "wait, who's still in this?" "POT"

It doesnt matter, nobody is folding now....time to get the money in. Not letting it check thru, I lead with the intention of making them flushes and lows pay to miss.

 

[shorticus]

question - what hand do you see UTG having with this type of probe bet given the line so far?

A45xx
A345x
both play this hand the same way your UTG player is playing it. Perhaps some weak spades in there to go with his nut low.

By the way, I think you want to pot here. You don't want to give free chances to a low (even though most low cards would quarter them), but more importantly, you don't want to let someone out draw you for free. Really and truly, there are not many river cards we want to see here. As a matter of fact, outside of the board pairing, we will never have the stone cold nuts here. One could realistically make a case that checking is not a terrible play here either.

 

[Legend5555]

I am no Big O expert. But I do have a decent amount of experience in split pot games and playing Big O against people that don't have a clue.

Preflop, I can get behind raising or calling. I'd much prefer to have a 2 instead of the 3 or 4 though. And I'd also prefer to not have a maniac on my left that likes to just fire all the time. In this instance, I probably just call because I'm likely not going to need to bloat this pot myself. If maniacs are going to maniac in pot limit, then just see flops first before really punishing them.

Flop: with no real high potential, it's fine to just pitch this hand. You just absolutely cannot be playing for half the pot in pot limit split pot games! Even when it is multiway. And even more so in Big O where the likelyhood you are quartering the low goes up.

Turn: as played, we have to just pot and pray for a good runout. Any board pair likely gives us the scoop. And any non flush low completing card gives us a likely scoop.

Here is the secret about Big O: it should be a dead game. Seriously. You can't really bluff in Big O that often. Shaun Deeb even made a comment about this a few years ago during the series, and I think that was just in standard PLO8. And anytime big money goes in, you should have at minimum a near lock one way with a good draw the other way. Big O for good players is one of the lowest variance games there is. You basically should almost never be having big swings because the worst that should ever be happening to you is getting quartered.

You don't need to get fancy in Big O. Play solid starting hands. Make your big hands, and extract value from people that just can't let hands go. If everyone at the table knows what they are doing in Big O, then it will be one of the most boring games you can play. I remember watching Nick Shulman win the 10k PLO8 in 2019. Even heads up, there was nothing fancy happening. They weren't juking and jiving and trying to steal pots. It was a boring affair. But that's the nature of big bet split pot games.

 

[Anthony Martino]

wait, how can BB fold the flop and lead the turn?

It's a typo, he meant UTG I figured

 

[CrazyEddie]

If everyone at the table knows what they are doing in Big O, then it will be one of the most boring games you can play.

If everyone at the table knows what they are doing, you're at the wrong table.

 

[kirchhausen]

Late to the game, but I:

1) check call preflop. Out of position, with a good low drawing hand, (but need a two for drawing to the nuts), one suited ace for a nut high potential, wheel potential but not a ton going on otherwise for high.
2) check call flop with nut low draw
3) bingo card gets there, but still so many cards that can come on river to make you no good. I check back, hoping that maniac pots lets re-pot to iso and at least get our money in good. There are a lot of icky rivers out there that will give us tough decisions. Lets not let that happen.

 

[MatB]

Hero’s hand is the equivalent (or close) of holding a pair on the flop with an OESD.

You get your money in. And get it in good.

Passive play with strong hands his how you tread water and analyze your hourly rate hoping it increase by $3.50. Running the scenarios through simulators wondering if you might have been ahead by 2% before you fold.

RIP IT IN AND BURN THE PLACE DOWN !!

 

[kirchhausen]

Late to the game, but I:

1) check call preflop. Out of position, with a good low drawing hand, (but need a two for drawing to the nuts), one suited ace for a nut high potential, wheel potential but not a ton going on otherwise for high.
2) check call flop with nut low draw
3) bingo card gets there, but still so many cards that can come on river to make you no good. I check back, hoping that maniac pots lets re-pot to iso and at least get our money in good. There are a lot of icky rivers out there that will give us tough decisions. Lets not let that happen.

oof. I missed that BB led into you $15 on the turn. no checking back, it is time to POT ($97).

 

[Goldfish]

Hero’s hand is the equivalent (or close) of holding a pair on the flop with an OESD.

You get your money in. And get it in good.

Passive play with strong hands his how you tread water and analyze your hourly rate hoping it increase by $3.50. Running the scenarios through simulators wondering if you might have been ahead by 2% before you fold.

RIP IT IN AND BURN THE PLACE DOWN !!

Yup. What he said. I only understand the last sentence and I like it. Let’s flipping goooo!!

 

[Legend5555]

If everyone at the table knows what they are doing, you're at the wrong table.

For sure. And for most of us this will never be the case anyway. I was using it to illustrate that there isn't much manuevering in Big O. In NLH and PLO, even if most people know what they are doing, you can still make some interesting plays and find spots to make bluffs and stuff. That just isn't really the case in Big O. So if people have an idea of what they are doing, it's very much just waiting for big hands to run into each other. Which is one of my major gripes with pot limit circus games too.

 

[MrCatPants]

For sure. And for most of us this will never be the case anyway. I was using it to illustrate that there isn't much manuevering in Big O. In NLH and PLO, even if most people know what they are doing, you can still make some interesting plays and find spots to make bluffs and stuff. That just isn't really the case in Big O. So if people have an idea of what they are doing, it's very much just waiting for big hands to run into each other. Which is one of my major gripes with pot limit circus games too.

For competitive play I agree with you - there's a small percentage of hands you play preflop, and you play to scoop. But for homegame/card room/casino play - the amount of people who will do things like draw to half the pot because they have a second nut low draw, and do this heads up, is mind boggling.

 

[MrCatPants]

I struggled with this decision point a great deal for a couple reasons - and not buying or selling the choice of action, just explaining:
1) what did this card change that caused UTG to put out a strange blocker looking bet out of position? A4xxx with ace of clubs flush draw? A high hand like 10JQKA or something similar, potentially also with a club or spade draw?
2) maniac is super aggressive and loves putting people in bad positions, but is also not a total moron against multiple players - if he was pushing a set of 10s, spade draw, a45xx type of hand does this card slow him down or does he keep piling it on?
3) "top set" is overrated - there are many combo draw hands that are even with me or potentially ahead with a large number of scoop outs - and my nut low draw may be in line to get quartered or even sixthed multi-way - not any cards other than a jack, paired board, or red 5 I actually want to see on the river. And a 10 may bring someone quads.
4) mentally, being in the game for a little over $200 and clawing my way back, I did have that "I don't want to lose all my work on what is not going to be much better than a flip, and I could be behind"
5) my club draw multiway is likely blockers at best

So, I called, and figured maniac might handle the aggression for me.

SB: ABC Player - $100
BB: Ultimate TAG, winningest player at the game - $100
UTG: Experienced player with shades of a calling station - $140
MP: Hero, blended TAG/LAG image - $220
CO: Skeptical player, overcalls because he is always sure he is being bluffed - $60
BT: Maniac, raises 85% of hands pre-flop in position - $170 stack

UTG flats .50

HERO looks down at

HERO FLATS .50
CO folds
BT pots to 2.25
SB folds
BB calls 2.25
UTG calls 2.25
HERO CALLS 2.25

POT is 9.25

Flop is

BB checks
UTG checks
HERO checks
BT pots 9.25
BB folds
UTG calls 9.25
Hero makes a stupid call because he's stuck like $200.

Turn brings the exact card someone called for,

Pot is $37

BB bets $15
Hero calls $15
Maniac raises to $50
BB calls $50
Action on Hero

 

[Legend5555]

For competitive play I agree with you - there's a small percentage of hands you play preflop, and you play to scoop. But for homegame/card room/casino play - the amount of people who will do things like draw to half the pot because they have a second nut low draw, and do this heads up, is mind boggling.

Exactly. My whole point in bringing this up is that it doesn't take much to do decent in Big O against most players. It can just be kinda boring. And that the best way to play it is generally quite conservatively.

Looping back to the hand in question, this is why Hero should just fold on the flop. Pot limit split games are about trying to scoop even more so than in limit split pot games. And having 5 cards means that someone has the nuts or nut draw a very high % of the time. So while Hero has the nut low draw, he basically has no high value. And the best high he can make (wheel) chops with a lot of people that will be in there. And the best non-shared high he can make (JJJ) on the turn is still very vulnerable to getting outdrawn, and it's only a 2 outer to begin with.

 

[MrCatPants]

Exactly. My whole point in bringing this up is that it doesn't take much to do decent in Big O against most players. It can just be kinda boring. And that the best way to play it is generally quite conservatively.

Looping back to the hand in question, this is why Hero should just fold on the flop. Pot limit split games are about trying to scoop even more so than in limit split pot games. And having 5 cards means that someone has the nuts or nut draw a very high % of the time. So while Hero has the nut low draw, he basically has no high value. And the best high he can make (wheel) chops with a lot of people that will be in there. And the best non-shared high he can make (JJJ) on the turn is still very vulnerable to getting outdrawn, and it's only a 2 outer to begin with.

I agree. Even at the time I knew flop call was tilty. Maybe against maniac my top pair may be enough against rampant aggro, and a low card coming in may bring a weak scoop, but 3 way there's no way it is.

 

[kirchhausen]

 

[Senzrock]

4) mentally, being in the game for a little over $200 and clawing my way back, I did have that "I don't want to lose all my work on what is not going to be much better than a flip, and I could be behind"

This #4 is what I see a lot of lower stakes players using as a mental block not to play the hand optimally (most profitably). This is why you should (ideally) only be playing in games that you feel 100% comfortable losing whatever amount of buyins that you came to play with. It feels like you are searching for reasons to not play a big pot at every decision point, including here with a clear pot. As played... what else is there to do but repot? Are there hands with plenty of equity against us? Sure! Are we ahead of most hands? Definitely? Just feels like a clear play at this point.

 

[kirchhausen]

Absolutely worst case scenario you are 29.29% equity 3 ways

this is if one player has As4s522 and the other has ac4dqckh9d for wheel wraps, broadway wraps, one set to block your outs and both nut flush draws. Ods are they have some of each other outs. You gotta get it in and embrace the variance.

 

[Legend5555]

I struggled with this decision point a great deal for a couple reasons - and not buying or selling the choice of action, just explaining:
1) what did this card change that caused UTG to put out a strange blocker looking bet out of position? A4xxx with ace of clubs flush draw? A high hand like 10JQKA or something similar, potentially also with a club or spade draw?
2) maniac is super aggressive and loves putting people in bad positions, but is also not a total moron against multiple players - if he was pushing a set of 10s, spade draw, a45xx type of hand does this card slow him down or does he keep piling it on?
3) "top set" is overrated - there are many combo draw hands that are even with me or potentially ahead with a large number of scoop outs - and my nut low draw may be in line to get quartered or even sixthed multi-way - not any cards other than a jack, paired board, or red 5 I actually want to see on the river. And a 10 may bring someone quads.
4) mentally, being in the game for a little over $200 and clawing my way back, I did have that "I don't want to lose all my work on what is not going to be much better than a flip, and I could be behind"
5) my club draw multiway is likely blockers at best

So, I called, and figured maniac might handle the aggression for me.

SB: ABC Player - $100
BB: Ultimate TAG, winningest player at the game - $100
UTG: Experienced player with shades of a calling station - $140
MP: Hero, blended TAG/LAG image - $220
CO: Skeptical player, overcalls because he is always sure he is being bluffed - $60
BT: Maniac, raises 85% of hands pre-flop in position - $170 stack

UTG flats .50

HERO looks down at

HERO FLATS .50
CO folds
BT pots to 2.25
SB folds
BB calls 2.25
UTG calls 2.25
HERO CALLS 2.25

POT is 9.25

Flop is

BB checks
UTG checks
HERO checks
BT pots 9.25
BB folds
UTG calls 9.25
Hero makes a stupid call because he's stuck like $200.

Turn brings the exact card someone called for,

Pot is $37

BB bets $15
Hero calls $15
Maniac raises to $50
BB calls $50
Action on Hero

Well you certainly can't fold. And I don't think anyone is folding to a jam at this point. No matter the river card, JJJ will never be the nuts. Obviously we don't want to see a spade, club, K, Q, A, or 9. Any other card though and we can't really fold the river. Even though a club gives us a flush, we can't be super happy with it.

If you had potted the bet, you had a better chance at getting this field narrowed. Now it looks like that wouldn't have actually mattered, but that's the reason to have raised. Getting heads up would have been ideal as your flush draw has a better chance of being good, and even if they have a wrap combo draw, you are still in decent shape. Against multiple players now that are likely never folding, we can't be as happy about getting the money in. As played we just call and pray for a "clean" card.

 

[Goldfish]

I don’t understand this at all. If ur going to fold a hand like a34jj pre then why play big o at all. Move on to a different game. And if ur gonna treat that hand like a marginal hand on a 2310j board, I think u need to go to the poker psychologist. U have nut lo draw, top set (which is the nuts right now), and clubs (which are blockers for the flush draw). This is a great hand! What else are you waiting for? All this talk about folding this hand pre and flatting in this situation is baffling to me. This is poker, which means you are gambling. Without exposure to a loss it is impossible to win money. People have to have outs or perceived outs to put money in the pot against you. If u wait until u have loc loc to put money in the pot u will never get paid off. U have the nuts right now with a chance to scoop. Why not apply max pressure on everyone who is drawing????? @MatB , please preach to this crowd.

 

[kirchhausen]

I don’t understand this at all. If ur going to fold a hand like a34jj pre then why play big o at all. Move on to a different game. And if ur gonna treat that hand like a marginal hand on a 2310j board, I think u need to go to the poker psychologist. U have nut lo draw, top set (which is the nuts right now), and clubs (which are blockers for the flush draw). This is a great hand! What else are you waiting for? All this talk about folding this hand pre and flatting in this situation is baffling to me. This is poker, which means you are gambling. Without exposure to a loss it is impossible to win money. People have to have outs or perceived outs to put money in the pot against you. If u wait until u have loc loc to put money in the pot u will never get paid off. U have the nuts right now with a chance to scoop. Why not apply max pressure on everyone who is drawing????? @MatB , please preach to this crowd.

YOU HAD ME UNTIL YOU ASKED @MatB FOR ADVICE

 

[detroitdad]

This #4 is what I see a lot of lower stakes using as a mental block not to play the hand optimally (most profitably). This is why you should (ideally) only be playing in games that you feel 100% comfortable losing whatever amount of buyins that you came to play with. It feels like you are searching for reasons to not play a big pot at every decision point, including here with a clear pot. As played... what else is there to do but repot? Are there hands with plenty of equity against us? Sure! Are we ahead of most hands? Definitely? Just feels like a clear play at this point.

I agree. Sometimes it burns you. If you are still playing the correct way, then you should whether you are even, up, or whatever. A few months ago I was in the game for 200. I had taken it up to 500. I lost it all in two of the last three hands of the evening. I felt like I played them both correctly. Shit just didn't work out.

It sucks, but oh well. Shit happens!

 

[CrazyEddie]

Some people just love to lose money as long as they get to win big pots

 

[detroitdad]

YOU HAD ME UNTIL YOU ASKED @MatB FOR ADVICE

^^^^^^^

 

[CraigT78]

YOU HAD ME UNTIL YOU ASKED @MatB FOR ADVICE

This is the way. @MatB is the definition of Degen.

 

[Legend5555]

I don’t understand this at all. If ur going to fold a hand like a34jj pre then why play big o at all. Move on to a different game. And if ur gonna treat that hand like a marginal hand on a 2310j board, I think u need to go to the poker psychologist. U have nut lo draw, top set (which is the nuts right now), and clubs (which are blockers for the flush draw). This is a great hand! What else are you waiting for? All this talk about folding this hand pre and flatting in this situation is baffling to me. This is poker, which means you are gambling. Without exposure to a loss it is impossible to win money. People have to have outs or perceived outs to put money in the pot against you. If u wait until u have loc loc to put money in the pot u will never get paid off. U have the nuts right now with a chance to scoop. Why not apply max pressure on everyone who is drawing????? @MatB , please preach to this crowd.

Who here said to fold pre?

I even wanted to pot it against the initial bet [edit: on the turn]. But now that there is basically zero chance we limit the field to heads up by jamming, what does jamming accomplish? We are getting insane odds to just call. Our high has a real good chance of not being a favorite against multiple opponents and we don't even have a low yet. The difference is that if the bad cards come, we can possibly fold. And if good cards come, we likely get the money in anyway because these villains clearly aren't interested in folding. So I don't really see the need to jam at this point.

Now if we had potted the turn after the initial bet, then we obviously get it in now if btn or bb jams because we will have so much invested already.

Bottom line though, you have to be VERY careful multiway in Big O. If this was heads up, I'm much happier just getting all the money in right now.

 

[MrCatPants]

No need for the attacks - just laying out the hand as I played for discussion.

With the pot where it was, I got over my #4 mentally and came to the conclusion that any of the A4xxx nut flush draw hands aren't folding if I jam now, and neither are the low or high wrap draws. Maybe set of 10s folds. That said, if the board pairs, I'm likely getting folds from everyone except if 10s continue, and so might as well get the money in now and maybe possibly get a fold from one player.

SB: ABC Player - $100
BB: Ultimate TAG, winningest player at the game - $100
UTG: Experienced player with shades of a calling station - $140
MP: Hero, blended TAG/LAG image - $220
CO: Skeptical player, overcalls because he is always sure he is being bluffed - $60
BT: Maniac, raises 85% of hands pre-flop in position - $170 stack

UTG flats .50

HERO looks down at

HERO FLATS .50
CO folds
BT pots to 2.25
SB folds
BB calls 2.25
UTG calls 2.25
HERO CALLS 2.25

POT is 9.25

Flop is

BB checks
UTG checks
HERO checks
BT pots 9.25
BB folds
UTG calls 9.25
Hero makes a stupid call because he's stuck like $200.

Turn brings the exact card someone called for,

Pot is $37

UTG bets $15
Hero calls $15
Maniac raises to $50
UTG calls $50
HERO All-In for a little over $100 effective
Maniac snap calls
UTG tanks and calls

Hands table automatically on our poker mavens server on an all in:
UTG tables: (Ok, makes sense, both nut flush draws and a wheel draw/second low draw
We still have:
Maniac button tables: (OESD on the top, bottom set, q high flush draw, ok...)

So we've got maniac drawing to 3 outs for a scoop, and 2 more outs for a split
UTG drawing to about as many cards as I am for the high or a split

Curious thoughts on others actions before I share the river.

 

[MatB]

At SQM we'll do $100 flip

I'll take Heros hand

 

[kmccormick100]

Without much fold equity and the chance to close the action for $50 I probably just flat the turn and hope to catch a good River.

Against those two hands you actually have a chance to scoop with an offsuit 5-8 or a board pair.

 

[Anthony Martino]

No need for the attacks - just laying out the hand as I played for discussion.

With the pot where it was, I got over my #4 mentally and came to the conclusion that any of the A4xxx nut flush draw hands aren't folding if I jam now, and neither are the low or high wrap draws. Maybe set of 10s folds. That said, if the board pairs, I'm likely getting folds from everyone except if 10s continue, and so might as well get the money in now and maybe possibly get a fold from one player.

SB: ABC Player - $100
BB: Ultimate TAG, winningest player at the game - $100
UTG: Experienced player with shades of a calling station - $140
MP: Hero, blended TAG/LAG image - $220
CO: Skeptical player, overcalls because he is always sure he is being bluffed - $60
BT: Maniac, raises 85% of hands pre-flop in position - $170 stack

UTG flats .50

HERO looks down at

HERO FLATS .50
CO folds
BT pots to 2.25
SB folds
BB calls 2.25
UTG calls 2.25
HERO CALLS 2.25

POT is 9.25

Flop is

BB checks
UTG checks
HERO checks
BT pots 9.25
BB folds
UTG calls 9.25
Hero makes a stupid call because he's stuck like $200.

Turn brings the exact card someone called for,

Pot is $37

UTG bets $15
Hero calls $15
Maniac raises to $50
UTG calls $50
HERO All-In for a little over $100 effective
Maniac snap calls
UTG tanks and calls

Hands table automatically on our poker mavens server on an all in:
UTG tables: (Ok, makes sense, both nut flush draws and a wheel draw/second low draw
We still have:
Maniac button tables: (OESD on the top, bottom set, q high flush draw, ok...)

So we've got maniac drawing to 3 outs for a scoop, and 2 more outs for a split
UTG drawing to about as many cards as I am for the high or a split

Curious thoughts on others actions before I share the river.

I figured UTG was gonna show up with , but him having the clubs too, yowza!

 

[MrCatPants]

Without much fold equity and the chance to close the action for $50 I probably just flat the turn and hope to catch a good River.

Against those two hands you actually have a chance to scoop with an offsuit 5-8 or a board pair.

Offsuit 9 does it too.