Tourney Better to shove with good cards OOP or with average cards at a single opponent? (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

Generally speaking, without specifics, when you find yourself very short stacked (probably wishing you shoved a couple orbits ago) are you better off shoving with halfway decent cards out of position, and risking multiple callers, or are you better off shoving with just about anything when you find yourself in the sb or bb with only one caller?
I guess this doesn't apply if you have AA or 27, and maybe there is no generally correct answer without more specifics.
Maybe the question is better stated as, when you're desperately short stacked, what's more important, cards or position?

 

[Poker Zombie]

First, I'm going to assume tournament play. Short Stack play in a cash game is different.

Next, let's define "Very Short Stacked" (VSS).

I see this in my casual home game quite a bit, and I qualify VSS as <10 BB, and your stack is <1/4 your opponent's stacks.

When you are VSS, what you do won't matter in early position. Everyone else is still playing, and will make their decisions as if you aren't even there. Other early positions and middle positions aren't going to compete for your stack with unknown action behind them.

Jam from late position with VSS with no previous action, and you should be called down with any 2 cards.

In short, if you are VSS, what you do won't matter too much. If there are antes, each hand you wait reduces your ability to make a comeback, and you need to make your move early. If you are only dealing with blinds, you can wait for the best 2 cards you can hope to get: any pair, suited connectors, or when both cards are 10s or better.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Generally speaking, without specifics, when you find yourself very short stacked (probably wishing you shoved a couple orbits ago) are you better off shoving with halfway decent cards out of position, and risking multiple callers, or are you better off shoving with just about anything when you find yourself in the sb or bb with only one caller?
I guess this doesn't apply if you have AA or 27, and maybe there is no generally correct answer without more specifics.
Maybe the question is better stated as, when you're desperately short stacked, what's more important, cards or position?

There are a lot of variables at play. ICM implications, for one. Are there other similarly short stacks? How short are we talking? Does the person to your left have a ton of chips? Are they the type that will call with anything in this spot, or do they need good cards to continue?

 

[XBobdog]

This is a question I think about a lot. I don't have a good answer. I think that if you passively allow yourself to get to the point where your bet doesn't matter anymore, than you are basically in a 99% luck situation. (I have gotten there many times, that's why I think about it a lot)

So assuming you are playing a small game (1 or 2 tables) and you have become VSS when most do. (blinds are starting to become an issue for many and every call is a significant commitment) In this case, if I'm early position I would rather play 2 low cards then A-low or high and low cards. 2 live cards always has a chance and multiple callers will often counterfeit high cards with bad kickers.

This may be a tear the band aid off approach, but if you are VSS you probably need triple up to get you back to relevancy.

 

[BGinGA]

In short, if you are VSS, what you do won't matter too much.

And that's one of the reasons you should never allow yourself to get VSS, unless it unavoidably happens suddenly with one big lost pot. You should be picking spots to shove it in there long beforehand, once you near or cross that 20bb threshold, when your stack is still large enough to cause damage.

 

[Adam Crowley]

The correct answer depends on a lot of variables.

The only correct answer to this question is you should be shoving a tighter range UTG than SB (there are few exceptions to this rule and when they exist if you make a mistake it is so tiny that there are probably more important things you could work on)

Go online, get an ICM calculator and plug in some information and you will get the correct answer to a specific question.

Generally the harder spots are when you are ITM and deciding on calling off a shorter stack that has moved all in.

 

[upNdown]

And that's one of the reasons you should never allow yourself to get VSS, unless it unavoidably happens suddenly with one big lost pot. You should be picking spots to shove it in there long beforehand, once you near or cross that 20bb threshold, when your stack is still large enough to cause damage.

Very true, but sometimes you can linger on a short stack and donk into second place money if the big stacks both happen to get good cards
And I'm only half joking - the whole point here is that balancing that "okay, it's obviously time to shove" with "goddamnit, I'm due for some good cards" is a tough decision, especially when you're on the bubble.

 

[Poker Zombie]

the whole point here is that balancing that "okay, it's obviously time to shove" with "goddamnit, I'm due for some good cards" is a tough decision, especially when you're on the bubble.

Gambler's Fallacy. You are never "due for some good cards".

I agree with BG - you should never allow yourself to become VSS. 20 BB is a good rule of thumb, but you need to look at how quickly blind levels go up and the aggression at the table. I've seen many "soft" home games where you can limp around with 5-7 BB, and work your way into the money. In particular, it the chip leader doesn't know how to use their big stack. Thant's when waiting for the right moment can pay off - but then again, if you're in a game that soft you should be the big stack.

While we're discussing limping into the money, I should ask "why aren't you playing to win?" From the first card dealt until the last river your goal shouldn't be 4th or 2nd. It should always be playing to win.

Don't leave 40% or more of the money on the table. If a loose player is swinging a big stack around stealing blinds, don't fold your pocket 10s to defend your stack just to make the first payout position. Your probably up on him. Take the stab. Go for 1st. Go big or go home.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Think 20 BB is a little high, but I try to not let myself get under 10 Biebers. And while I do always try to win, there's no shame in trying to fold your way into the money if you are short and the bubble is nigh.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Never fall below 10 Biebers. That would be awful.

 

[upNdown]

Gambler's Fallacy. You are never "due for some good cards".

I agree with BG - you should never allow yourself to become VSS. 20 BB is a good rule of thumb, but you need to look at how quickly blind levels go up and the aggression at the table. I've seen many "soft" home games where you can limp around with 5-7 BB, and work your way into the money. In particular, it the chip leader doesn't know how to use their big stack. Thant's when waiting for the right moment can pay off - but then again, if you're in a game that soft you should be the big stack.

While we're discussing limping into the money, I should ask "why aren't you playing to win?" From the first card dealt until the last river your goal shouldn't be 4th or 2nd. It should always be playing to win.

Don't leave 40% or more of the money on the table. If a loose player is swinging a big stack around stealing blinds, don't fold your pocket 10s to defend your stack just to make the first payout position. Your probably up on him. Take the stab. Go for 1st. Go big or go home.

I agree with you about playing to win, but sometimes it makes sense to shift gears. I was specifically referring to the poker stars tournament last night, where it was down to me, bg, and jimulacrum - I was at 5k, the other two were both around 50k, and payouts went to 1st and 2nd place.
In a situation like that, I don't mind putting it into idle for a little bit, to see if the big stacks will get it all in against each other.
If I got a premium hand, of course I would have shoved anyway, but absent that, I don't mind playing for second in that situation.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I agree with you about playing to win, but sometimes it makes sense to shift gears. I was specifically referring to the poker stars tournament last night, where it was down to me, bg, and jimulacrum - I was at 5k, the other two were both around 50k, and payouts went to 1st and 2nd place.
In a situation like that, I don't mind putting it into idle for a little bit, to see if the big stacks will get it all in against each other.
If I got a premium hand, of course I would have shoved anyway, but absent that, I don't mind playing for second in that situation.

A lot of people play that way. I know if you were playing vs BG, then you had very little chance of cashing, because he is not going to let you limp into the money (no experience vs @Jimulacrum ). Your only shot would be if your 2 opponents were already mixing it up a lot, and it KO'ing the other was becoming personal. Otherwise you were hoping for either a premium hand for yourself, or simultaneous premium hands for both of your opponents. Because I assure you, they knew you were on the bubble.

As for shifting gears: if the game is soft, or the blinds are swallowing up a new player every had or two, then I agree limping has value. In the example you gave (50k-50k-5k), and I'm assuming 500-1000 blinds, you were just flotsam in their tournament. Shoving with good OOP or jamming vs one was irrelevant to them. Either one could donk off 5 BB and not bat an eye - a 10% swing between 1st and 2nd heads up is natural ebb and flow.

 

[lnlver]

I agree with you about playing to win, but sometimes it makes sense to shift gears. I was specifically referring to the poker stars tournament last night, where it was down to me, bg, and jimulacrum - I was at 5k, the other two were both around 50k, and payouts went to 1st and 2nd place. In a situation like that, I don't mind putting it into idle for a little bit, to see if the big stacks will get it all in against each other. If I got a premium hand, of course I would have shoved anyway, but absent that, I don't mind playing for second in that situation.

Usually in these situations, the top two stacks will avoid playing large pots against each other unless one has AA pre-flop or top set or a strong made hand or draw post-flop.

Both are focusing on your short stack and waiting for you to lose patience and make a bad decision or for the blinds to keep increasing until you are priced in to calling any raise regardless of your hand.

At least, that's my approach when I have a large stack against one other large stack and a short stack on the bubble.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Smart large stacks will pick up on that and play aggressively against the other big stack to try and generate a chip lead.

 

[BGinGA]

Unfortunately, I ran into a situation with a PLO hand having nut flush and gutshot broadway draws (and a high pocket pair), and Jim wouldn't let me see any post-flop cards for cheap - don't even remember what he had. It turned into one of those "VSS unavoidably happened suddenly with one big lost pot" situations. The hand just as easily could have cinched the win.

Could I have out-waited the short stack? Sure, but Jim was pounding away on almost every hand, and to just sit back and wait for the short stack to bust meant I was probably going to end with 2nd place as my stack dwindled while Jim's increased. I chose to play for the win when the odds were favorable. If it had been a $200 or $2000 difference in cashing on the bubble (vs $20), I might have played it differently.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Actually, this was the hand in question:

PokerStars Home Game Hand #164488470804: {PokerChipForum} Tournament #1783016033, 17000+1250+3000 Mixed PLH/PLO (Hold'em Pot Limit) - Level XVII (400/800) - 2017/01/12 23:30:24 ET
Table '1783016033 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 4: BGinGA (48983 in chips)
Seat 6: Jimulacrum (61937 in chips)
Seat 8: betttterman (9080 in chips)
Jimulacrum: posts small blind 400
betttterman: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Jimulacrum [7h 6h]
BGinGA: raises 2000 to 2800
Jimulacrum: calls 2400
betttterman: folds
*** FLOP *** [6c Jh Kh]
Jimulacrum: checks
BGinGA: checks
*** TURN *** [6c Jh Kh] [3d]
Jimulacrum: bets 4500
BGinGA: raises 7700 to 12200
Jimulacrum: raises 30800 to 43000
BGinGA: calls 30800
*** RIVER *** [6c Jh Kh 3d] [8c]
Jimulacrum: bets 16137 and is all-in
BGinGA: folds
Uncalled bet (16137) returned to Jimulacrum
Jimulacrum collected 92400 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 92400 | Rake 0
Board [6c Jh Kh 3d 8c]
Seat 4: BGinGA (button) folded on the River
Seat 6: Jimulacrum (small blind) collected (92400)
Seat 8: betttterman (big blind) folded before Flop

We both made a large semi-bluff against each other, and then you whiffed a big draw on the river (you said nut hearts plus a gutshot) and had to fold with only a tiny amount left to keep yourself in the tournament. This was all on the money bubble, and our previous hands included a lot of loose aggression too. This is the kind of action that can happen when @BGinGA and I start mixing it up short-handed (though this hand is on the extreme end).

It's also very noteworthy that this was a bounty tournament where the bounty is 1/3 of the buy-in ($10+5), so shortstacks are very likely to get called when they shove, especially versus deep stacks, and especially on the bubble. Knowing that, shoving will almost never take down the blinds, so it's important to be shoving with hands that figure to be ahead.

Given that it's three-handed and people are calling even lighter than usual, that could mean as little as king- or a good queen-high. However, I'd tighten up to good king-highs and better in any spots where it looks like the two maniacs could possibly go at it. Sometimes it's best to sit back and let other players lose.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Ah.... PLO is a different beast. Way more chances for big stacks to mix it up. I was thinking NL Holdem. I shouldn't give advice for PLO as all I know is how to lose money at it.

 

[BGinGA]

Well, it was a PLHE/PLO tourney, so the game changed every 5 minutes.

 

[BGinGA]

Dealt to Jimulacrum [7h 6h]
Board [6c Jh Kh 3d 8c]

Ack! I guess my hand was good.....

Dealt to BGinGA [Ah Th Tc 9c]

Nice 3-bet on the Turn followed by the River shove. Dunno what you were thinking with a pair of sixes.... but it worked.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Ack! I guess my hand was good.....

Dealt to BGinGA [Ah Th Tc 9c]

Nice 3-bet on the Turn followed by the River shove. Dunno what you were thinking with a pair of sixes.... but it worked.

Not sure where you got those four cards, but I can assure you it wasn't in this hold'em hand.

 

[BGinGA]

Doh late night brain fart. Had AT hearts.