Cash Game Being Staked In Cash Games

Anthony Martino

4 of a Kind
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
6,065
Reaction score
8,791
Location
Tampa, FL
A poker buddy of mine I kinda took under my wing and helped him understand my approach to PLO that's made me successful. But he's too much of a gambler and just lacks the patience to get out of a game while the getting's good.

He has other revenue streams (business, landlord, etc) so he isn't hurting, but he does lose when he plays most of the time and he's reached the point where he wants to stop playing as much. Instead, he wants to stake me into some of the private, higher-stakes games he had been playing (where you'll see winners and losers of 5-20K or sometimes more, had one private game with 125K on the table)

This is all PLO, of course. He's working on putting the money together but when we discussed it briefly he mentioned maybe I buyin for $2500 and he puts up the other $2500 in a game, etc.

I've never done any cash game stakes before, but my understanding if I was being staked 100% would be:

1. The backer receives 50% of the profit, I keep 50%

2. If I'm losing/down then I'm in makeup (i.e. this week I'm down 5K so next week if I win 10K profit I don't just get to split it with him 50/50 because I owe him the 5K in stakeback, so he'd get the 5K back and then we'd split the remaining 5K at a 50/50 ratio)

3. The backer and I would need to agree EXACTLY what game(s) this arrangement was for (most likely just the private games)

4. A set time period where we'd re-evaluate the stake (could be based on set # of sessions, days/weeks/months, wins or losses, etc)

5. A specific frequency where I would pay the backer his share of any winnings or obtain additional funds to play if I need to reload

6. How often I would communicate updates to the backer on my results

7. What my backing limit/budget would be (per session, week, month, whatever)

8. If the backer wishes me to utilize any specific stop-loss or stop-win amount for some of the games (as many of the guys in these games have mucho mulah and will just keep throwing it at you until they get you, and if a game is uncapped or allows them to buy up to the big stack, I could turn 5K into 18K and still have it potentially all at risk)

9. What occurs if the backer or I decide to end the arrangement while I'm in makeup



So I'm going under the assumption here that he might just be going halfs with me in some of these games, rather than covering me 100%. However, he is my key to these juicier private games, which has value. So if he's just covering half my buyin would he only get 25% of the profits then (but of course still be considered for makeup?)

Could really use some input. Might be a really great opportunity for me to hit some bigger wins than possible in the local rooms and stakes.
 

Anthony Martino

4 of a Kind
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
6,065
Reaction score
8,791
Location
Tampa, FL
https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/9041f3d9-d01e-4815-a1cc-6ad47c118975

This all sounds a bit terrifying to me. Personally im a bankroll nit so I'd not be comfortable being staked. But I've had a mate or two do it.

Well, I'm a bankroll nit too, but not really terrified by this proposition. Actually feel pretty proud that the guy believes in me enough to back me. Just want to make sure I go about it right so we both know what to expect, get a fair deal and there's no hurt feelings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: J93

SpaceMonkey420

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
623
Reaction score
697
Location
West Side USA
I have been staked many many many times. In big tourneys it’s simple. They buy you in. They allow one extra bullet or whatever agreed upon prior is fine. I keep 20%, I have no risk. I have gotten 70/30 a few times. Not fair IMO. If traveling and playing (which I don’t) people use you stake me.com (or something like that) and include expenses. People like that site because u can sell fractions to many people. I personally just used one or two other players.
The cash games people stake me we do night by night. You match every Single dollar in my pocket walking in. End of the night you split every single dollar in my pocket walking out. End of story.

hope that helps.

PS. Four cards or bust!!! Won’t catch me EVER playing no limit boredom!!! THE GREAT GAME OF PLO RULES US ALL. I RUN A NOSEBLEED IN NOR CAL. Our card room just opened this week. Cruise out anytime. We play a 3/5 live Mississippi straddle any position up to half your stack. Min buy in $500. No cap. Often 100k by midnight. 250k by 6am. Runs weekly. It’s luda.
 

Anthony Martino

4 of a Kind
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
6,065
Reaction score
8,791
Location
Tampa, FL
I have been staked many many many times. In big tourneys it’s simple. They buy you in. They allow one extra bullet or whatever agreed upon prior is fine. I keep 20%, I have no risk. I have gotten 70/30 a few times. Not fair IMO. If traveling and playing (which I don’t) people use you stake me.com (or something like that) and include expenses. People like that site because u can sell fractions to many people. I personally just used one or two other players.
The cash games people stake me we do night by night. You match every Single dollar in my pocket walking in. End of the night you split every single dollar in my pocket walking out. End of story.

hope that helps.

PS. Four cards or bust!!! Won’t catch me EVER playing no limit boredom!!! THE GREAT GAME OF PLO RULES US ALL. I RUN A NOSEBLEED IN NOR CAL. Our card room just opened this week. Cruise out anytime. We play a 3/5 live Mississippi straddle any position up to half your stack. Min buy in $500. No cap. Often 100k by midnight. 250k by 6am. Runs weekly. It’s luda.
The thing is, I think that sounds like a bad deal. You're being staked for half the money, and they get half the winnings (or losses). Where is YOUR cut for the skill you bring to the game? If a 100% staking arrangement in cash is generally 50/50 split of profits, then it seems silly for me to agree to the same split for half the support?


The only thing I know about staking is that it leads to some crazy reads on two plus two.

Here's to hoping your staking journey ends up as a, very positive, two plus two thread. ;) :D :tup:
I was banned a gazillion years ago at 2+2 and have never gone back to that hive of scum and villainy lol
 

surfik

Flush
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
1,408
Reaction score
712
Location
Poland
Fun fact... I have been staked playing NLH several times by my friend. When ever that took place and we were playing same table I have always end up cleaning him up...
 

SpaceMonkey420

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
623
Reaction score
697
Location
West Side USA
Where is YOUR cut for the skill you bring to the game? If a 100% staking arrangement in cash is generally 50/50 split of profits
Who in the world said cash is generally 50/50 at 100%? Please direct me we need to talk. I’ve heard 75% but mostly it’s 80/20. Your skill in the game sounds like it gets u a free roll. Better hurry and shuffle up and deal. Thats what I do although I haven’t taken a stake offer since November of 2015, I see them at my game almost weekly and personally only used them back
In the day for nosebleed tourneys. Cash I play my own stake because I rarely lose and can afford it.
I am playing Friday. Last three Fridays 7/9/27. Up almost 40.

Send me 10k bank transfer I’ll see what I can do 70/30 all day. Welcome to come hang on the rail too.
 
Last edited:

Anthony Martino

4 of a Kind
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
6,065
Reaction score
8,791
Location
Tampa, FL
Who in the world said cash is generally 50/50 at 100%? Please direct me we need to talk. I’ve heard 75% but mostly it’s 80/20. Your skill in the game sounds like it gets u a free roll. Better hurry and shuffle up and deal. Thats what I do although I haven’t taken a stake offer since November of 2015, I see them at my game almost weekly and personally only used them back
In the day for nosebleed tourneys. Cash I play my own stake because I rarely lose and can afford it.
Looks like you edited the post. I think those other arrangements (80/20, 75/25, etc) are more for tourney backing than cash?

As far as playing my own stake, I do and I'm doing fine. I win 2/3 of my sessions and play 1/2/5 and 2/5/10 PLO every week. Buy my buyins are $500-2K. If I'm getting into games where buyins are 5K or potentially more, well.........that's outside my comfort level with my roll. I'm sure against the lineup of crazies I'd be a long-term winner in those games, but only if I'm properly rolled to handle the swings, because I've played some of those guys in the 2/5/10 which wasn't big enough for them and they were constantly bumping pots, they just don't care.
 

SpaceMonkey420

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
623
Reaction score
697
Location
West Side USA
Looks like you edited the post. I think those other arrangements (80/20, 75/25, etc) are more for tourney backing than cash?

As far as playing my own stake, I do and I'm doing fine. I win 2/3 of my sessions and play 1/2/5 and 2/5/10 PLO every week. Buy my buyins are $500-2K. If I'm getting into games where buyins are 5K or potentially more, well.........that's outside my comfort level with my roll. I'm sure against the lineup of crazies I'd be a long-term winner in those games, but only if I'm properly rolled to handle the swings, because I've played some of those guys in the 2/5/10 which wasn't big enough for them and they were constantly bumping pots, they just don't care.
Ya my game has guys straddling $100 every hand even under the gun. Pump pump pump. Get anything over 20% you can. I always split my cash 50/50 and only do it with close friends who can afford it. Honestly I can not remember one person who ever staked me and lost money in the long run. No surprise my nickname here is the Goat. This is the reason I stopped. I just keep the wins now that I’m completely comfortable. Good luck. That 500/2k game is perfect for now. What state is that in?

ps. i proof read the best after I hit send. =)
 
Joined
Sep 26, 2017
Messages
243
Reaction score
146
Location
Raleigh, NC
I mean from my experience on a previous site that’s no more, if you’re going for something short term, or just a few shots at the local game, no make up would make more sense obv but would give him a larger %.

if you are both entering this as something of a longer term partnership, and including make up, I’m not sure of your skill since I’m just mostly a lurker (but seems you’re more than adept since it’s your income), then something more of a 50% cut makes sense. And if you’re going to include your proven game (2k buy in) as part of the action, you should gain an even larger %.

but that’s if he’s taking the full stake. If you’re putting up half, then he’s getting 50% of his 50% cut (bc as you said, you must be rewarded for your skill). Now if only the private game is included where it’s more shot taking, maybe he should get a larger % of his 50% (maybe 75/25 on his 50% stake if that makes sense, making it closer to 65/35 final)
 

Anthony Martino

4 of a Kind
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
6,065
Reaction score
8,791
Location
Tampa, FL
Ya my game has guys straddling $100 every hand even under the gun. Pump pump pump. Get anything over 20% you can. I always split my cash 50/50 and only do it with close friends who can afford it. Honestly I can not remember one person who ever staked me and lost money in the long run. No surprise my nickname here is the Goat. This is the reason I stopped. I just keep the wins now that I’m completely comfortable. Good luck. That 500/2k game is perfect for now. What state is that in?

ps. i proof read the best after I hit send. =)
I'm in Tampa FL. I play a 1/2 PLO game with buyins $100-500 and an optional $5 straddle (button gets preference over other positions)

A 1/2 PLO with mandatory $5 button straddle and UNLIMITED restraddles where buyins are $200-1K and this game can get crazy for the stakes, with some hands restraddled to $80. I've seen $160 a few times and heard of $320 straddles. But generally the restraddles are less like $10 or $20. So it's not every hand restraddled to $80, but man is this game good.

And a 2/5 PLO with a $10 rock posted by the winner of the previous hand with buyins of $200-2K

My personal loss limit per day is 3K. It's all I bring with me, and if I lose it, I'm done for the day, not chasing the losses. Likewise, if I'm in a game and I'm up a significant amount, but there are dangerous gambling players with stacks that could really put a dent in my stack, I'll get out and preserve my win.

Now, if I've got people covered comfortably and they can't really hurt me too much, and the game is good and I'm deep-stacked I'll stick around. But I quit my job because I worked too many hours, so I'm not really excited to try and play 14 hour sessions and run up stupid stacks.

I mean from my experience on a previous site that’s no more, if you’re going for something short term, or just a few shots at the local game, no make up would make more sense obv but would give him a larger %.

if you are both entering this as something of a longer term partnership, and including make up, I’m not sure of your skill since I’m just mostly a lurker (but seems you’re more than adept since it’s your income), then something more of a 50% cut makes sense. And if you’re going to include your proven game (2k buy in) as part of the action, you should gain an even larger %.

but that’s if he’s taking the full stake. If you’re putting up half, then he’s getting 50% of his 50% cut (bc as you said, you must be rewarded for your skill). Now if only the private game is included where it’s more shot taking, maybe he should get a larger % of his 50% (maybe 75/25 on his 50% stake if that makes sense, making it closer to 65/35 final)
I wasn't planning on having him back me in my regular games, I don't think that was his intention either. I'm comfortable in those games with my roll and results. But for games against opponents with "fuck you money" who will be applying pressure relentlessly and forcing me to gamble more frequently, and at stakes and buyins higher than my daily loss limit, I would need some sort of backing for it to make sense.

Plus, it would take time for me to learn how those games play, who is who because I don't know them all, and so I'd likely approach it with a Rolf Slotboom style to start, allowing me to realize my equity and take advantage of deeper stacked overly aggressive types, and eventually play deeper stacked as I get to know them.
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
13,186
Reaction score
21,530
Location
America's High-Five
I can't afford to play in the higher private games on my own dime without having a risk of ruin I'm not comfortable with
You play 2/5/10 for $2k and if you double up, you walk out with $4k -- a $2k profit.

You play this game for a $2500 buyin (half yours) and if you double up, you walk out with $5k, but only a $1,250 profit.

I'd stick to the game you can beat for more money. Yes, this game has a higher upside, but makeup is no fun.
 
Last edited:

Shaggy

Full House
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
2,703
Reaction score
3,624
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
I’ve done the below deal for short term blackjack.
Banker contribution: 100%
Player contribution: 0%
50/50 split of profits. I.e. banker gets back his contribution and profits are split 50/50 by player and banker. Player is free rolling and entirety of loss is absorbed by banker. No makeup.

Taking that philosophy but making the player a 50% banker... it’s the same.
Banker contribution (50/50 between banker A and Banker B... i.e. player): 100%
Player Contribution: 0%
Banker(s) still absorb all losses. Banker(s) get back their contribution, then the bankers and player still split profits 50/50. At this point, the bankers split their 50... in this case since the player was half the bank, he will end up with 75%.

It is critical to cut up the profits and not just the final roll. Here's an example that illustrates why... if you just do a 75/25 split of the final roll.
Banker A contributes $2000
Player contributes $2000
Total Roll $4000.

Player plays 20 hours... finishes with $4500... up $500. Split result 75/25... Player ends up with $3375, banker ends up with $1125. The banker lost $875. This is not an acceptable arrangement.

By splitting the profits, the banker would get back his $2000. The player would get back his $2000. They would then split the $500, 75/25. Player getting $375 and the banker getting $125. Net result, player walks away with $2375 and banker walks away with $2125.
 
Last edited:

tabletalker7

Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
1,256
Location
Buffalo NY
I can't afford to play in the higher private games on my own dime without having a risk of ruin I'm not comfortable with
Then don't do this. If this is a good friend like you say, instead of getting in a rhythm and playing your game you will be worried about not only your money but his money too. People who worry about the money like that always end up failing because they couldn't pull the trigger when they needed to. Just tell your friend that staking makes you uncomfortable or the whole "money ruins friendships" thing and politely turn him down.
 

moose

Full House
Joined
Nov 4, 2014
Messages
3,391
Reaction score
5,865
Location
chip harvesting
I'm getting into games where buyins are 5K or potentially more, well.........that's outside my comfort level with my roll.
Don’t do the deal Anthony, always play for yourself.
Would you be comfortable walking into a bank and borrowing say $20k at 0% interest and using it to sit in these games? Because that is essentially what you are doing. If you can't see yourself doing that then don't get staked.

If you lose you will be in makeup until you clear your debts and if he cuts you off at say $20k then you would have to pay him back from your regular games or go back to work.
 

TheDuke

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
570
Reaction score
990
Location
Edmonton
Negotiate with the guy.

If he's staking 50% and gets 50% of the wins then he should take 100% of his loss (50%). No makeup.

If you negotiate a different profit share then maybe include some makeup.
 

Anthony Martino

4 of a Kind
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Messages
6,065
Reaction score
8,791
Location
Tampa, FL
Fwiw he hasn't mentioned makeup, I'm just going off what I've read on cash game staking deals based on 100% rather than 50%

If he proposes a 50% backing arrangement, perhaps me splitting what's left in my wallet at the end of each session with NO makeup is right then?
 

SpaceMonkey420

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
623
Reaction score
697
Location
West Side USA
Fwiw he hasn't mentioned makeup, I'm just going off what I've read on cash game staking deals based on 100% rather than 50%

If he proposes a 50% backing arrangement, perhaps me splitting what's left in my wallet at the end of each session with NO makeup is right then?
I Used to do that with my buddies. No feelings get hurt. Easy math. We get our buy ins back. We split. I get in easier game. I win more money in less time against worse players who spend more money. I risk a lot less. Don’t be greedy whatever u decide and never jeopardize ur integrity. Good luck. I’ve heard about the Tampa madness. Too bad it’s like 3 hours from lauderdale airport. The wrong direction! Lol
 

Legend5555

Flush
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
1,511
Reaction score
1,975
Location
Georgia
For short term stuff, I wouldn't do make up. The backer is accepting the financial risk in exchange for potential profit. If the backer wants make up, then his risk is lessened greatly. He only risks the player potentially not paying him back if the player actually loses.

I'd want to do the Knish deal that he gives McDermot. 50/50 on profit. If you lose its on the backer.
 
Last edited:

SpaceMonkey420

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Messages
623
Reaction score
697
Location
West Side USA
Cash he stakes. No back pay. 80/20. U risk zero. Not the best deal but Think about it u can’t lose. Poker and can’t lose!? Ok duhhhh Play the nosebleed freeroll but whatever u do don’t let the players see u sweat the bread, or it affect your emotions. They will run u over intentionally and in unison. In your mind set your a multi millionaire and lots more on the way. Throwing chips around. NBD. Keep us posted and I’ll look for u when I’m there next year. Peace.
 
Top Bottom