Battle Royale: Copag vs Bicycle vs Desjgn Review (3 Viewers)

[Poker Zombie]

I just picked up my first setup (or 5) of Desjgn bridge/Jumbo index cards. This adds to a supply of Copag 1546, Bicycle Prestige, KEM (USPC), Congress, Modiano, and probably a few others that just don't see enough rotation for me to go back and see what they are.

Yes, I have enough cards that some have be relegated to the back corner of a bottom shelf, where they will probably never feel the smooth caress of the felt. In addition, I bought the Copags and Bicycles in bulk. They are clear price-point winners, and I have more than enough to last my lifetime. Cards on the shelf of despair are just waiting until I need the space for more chips, and then they'll be pushed out the door.

Despite the lack of a need for these cards, I really wanted the Kickstarter project to be successful. The price point on the Kickstarter would make these viable high rotation cards, so I picked up more than a sample deck. But will they cut the mustard?

First, let's take a look at what the Desjgn cards are trying to earn. My game is a two table, occasionally three table event. Self-dealt, two decks per table (shuffle behind). No two decks can have the same backing, so when we hit three tables (10% of the time) we need to have six different card-backs available. Originally an all Copag event, the Bicycles took over with a far better ease of shuffle. Since the Bicycles only come with two backs, they are currently on the main table, while the Copags are on the second and third tables. It is entirely possible that the Desjgn with their two back designs could take the main table, the secondary table, or be relegated to the shelf of despair.

So the Battle Royal begins...

Round 1: Artwork

At first I wasn't sure if I would like the Desjgn diamonds. The shape reminds me more of a star. I am also not a fan of the Ace artwork. One viewer turned the Ace of hearts upside down, thinking the heart art was supposed to be an A. Suffice to say, the heart art is suffering from a severe case of cardiomyopathy.

Let's be fair though - the Bicycle and the Copag ignore aces, except for the Ace of Spades. WTF? In fact, the club/diamond/heart art on their cards is smaller than the club/diamond/heart on the index. Apparently, the Bicycle and Copag art was done by this guy...

The back designs are nice. Complex is far better than simple designs. We have a lot of food at our events, and sometimes a dirty finger will smudge a card. That smudge is more noticeable on simple designs, requiring more frequent deck changes - or worse, allowing a card to be marked. Desjgn is the most complex, almost making you want to look away. It's like looking at the floor of a casino. While this may seem ugly, It's not. It's just not anything you would want to wallpaper your house with, unless you were in Victorian England or you could get that pattern in velour for your 1970s love shack. For what they set out to do, the Desjgn have knocked it out of the park.

Round 1: Desjgn

Stay tuned for later rounds. I suspect this will be a 5 round battle, but I may think of something else or someone may make a good suggestion, so the Battle Royal may go into overtime - like an old-timey boxing match in the bare-knuckled days.

Which is apt, because I can't shuffle wearing 18oz gloves...

 

[WedgeRock]

Subscribed

 

[RichMahogany]

I’ll take Desjgn in the 4th round by TKO.

 

[BGinGA]

Early smart money is on the Prestige. Hard to beat a budget card that out-performs most high-end offerings. Waiting for the bell... where's that hot Round card carrier gal?

 

[upNdown]

I don’t understand the designs on the aces. This is probably a rorshach-y response, but all I can think of when I see them is vaginas.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don’t understand the designs on the aces. This is probably a rorshach-y response, but all I can think of when I see them is vaginas.

I thought the aces were questionable. Now I look at them and think fallopian tubes...

Early smart money is on the Prestige. Hard to beat a budget card that out-performs most high-end offerings. Waiting for the bell... where's that hot Round card carrier gal?

Hot girl with a sign... just for Dave...

Round 2: Distance Test - Suits


As I mentioned, we have a self-dealt game. When a player at one far end of the oval is dealing, their opponent at the opposite end of the oval is roughly 7' away. This often results in "What is the flop" type questions. This reason alone is why the shelf of despair is home to standard index cards. They are simply not usable at distance. I've even had requests for "Magnum" index cards from my group. Someday I may oblige. I'll also buy manhole covers for chips, and invite the crew of the International Space Station to join in as they fly overhead.


After doing a few distance tests, the Desjgn diamonds have completely won me over! Easily identifiable from a distance and no mistaking it for a heart. Hearts and diamonds were more difficult to differentiate with the Bicycles and Copags. Because I don't have the worst vision in my group, I put on a pair of +.5 reading glasses and tried again. The Desjgn were still noticeably different, though the diamond looked like a small red dot vs the heart which was a large red dot. I tried again with +2.0 reading glasses and threw up.


Desjgn clubs and diamonds fared average in distance tests. All three brands were hard to tell the black cards apart, and would require a bit of energy focusing on the suit to tell the difference. None were complete failures though. I did not repeat the club/spade test with the +2.0 glasses. Nausea once a day is my limit.


Round 2: Desjgn

 

[SixSpeedFury]

I don’t understand the designs on the aces. This is probably a rorshach-y response, but all I can think of when I see them is vaginas.

Showdown: "I have the J of vagina."

 

[Poker Zombie]

Showdown: "I have the J of vagina."

Ha! I got you - I'm the King of Vaginas!

 

[WedgeRock]

(NSFW - language)

 

[Poker Zombie]

Round 3 : Distance Test - Aces and Fours

I sometimes have a hard time telling an A or a 4 from a distance. Getting old has it’s advantages, but eyesight is not one of them. All 3 decks fared the same in this test. Desjgn has a wide-stance A and I could tell the difference after a beat. Copag and Bicycle have a narrow A to help tell them apart. All have a 4 with a closed cap that might make you think "Ace" when you first look. I would greatly prefer a 4 with an open cap, but this is not a common font.

The wide stance actually carries over across a lot of the indexes. For NLHE this shouldn't matter much, but in 4 (or more) card games, this could be troublesome to see your entire hand as you have to spread the cards much further apart. For a 13 card bridge hand - fuhgettaboutit.

Round 3: Copag, with Bicycle a close second. Not because of the the aces and fours test, but because the font is just so wide.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Round 4: Deck Thickness

Deck thickness test: I have to admit, I didn't think I could tell the difference of the thickness of a single card. I was mistaken. The Desjgn are noticeably thinner than the Bicycle and Copags. A single Desjgn flexes with less pressure than either of it's competitors, and this could result in "deck explosions" caused by poor shuffling skills.

Of course, this flex could be caused by different plastic construction, right? So, I dropped them onto a scale. The Desjgn came in at 3.8 oz (108g), while the Copag tipped the scale at 4.1 oz (116g) and the heavyweight contender Bicycles were 4.2 oz (119g).

Side-by-side-by-side comparisons of all three decks reinforced this data. A deck of Desjgn were a full 3 cards shorter than either the Bicycle or the Copag. This thinness does not present a security concern though. I held a Desjgn card up to the Sun. I could not see through the card and was unable to read the rank or suit. For my effort, I have a floating spot in my vision now. I hope your enjoyment of this review was worth my burned retinas.

Round 4 goes to the Bicycle Prestige, with Copag only 3 grams behind. After 4 rounds, nobody is a clear leader. All three decks will need to come out swinging in the 5th round, which will center around shuffling...

 

[RichMahogany]

View attachment 129622

Round 4: Deck Thickness

Deck thickness test: I have to admit, I didn't think I could tell the difference of the thickness of a single card. I was mistaken. The Desjgn are noticeably thinner than the Bicycle and Copags. A single Desjgn flexes with less pressure than either of it's competitors, and this could result in "deck explosions" caused by poor shuffling skills.

Of course, this flex could be caused by different plastic construction, right? So, I dropped them onto a scale. The Desjgn came in at 3.8 oz (108g), while the Copag tipped the scale at 4.1 oz (116g) and the heavyweight contender Bicycles were 4.2 oz (119g).

Side-by-side-by-side comparisons of all three decks reinforced this data. A deck of Desjgn were a full 3 cards shorter than either the Bicycle or the Copag. This thinness does not present a security concern though. I held a Desjgn card up to the Sun. I could not see through the card and was unable to read the rank or suit. For my effort, I have a floating spot in my vision now. I hope your enjoyment of this review was worth my burned retinas.

Round 4 goes to the Bicycle Prestige, with Copag only 3 grams behind. After 4 rounds, nobody is a clear leader. All three decks will need to come out swinging in the 5th round, which will center around shuffling...

Great review PZ.

This goes to show you how different everyone’s preferences for cards are. I feel that the Prestige’s, although the thickest cards of the bunch, are also the slickest and have the most “deck explosions” for me. I prefer a thinner card, using pre-USPC Kems as my gold standard for feel. They have a buttery smooth shuffle that I enjoy.

I’ve recently had a chance to try out Da Vinci and Fournier cards for the first time(not counting the Prestiges as Fournier in this regard). The Da Vinci’s are quality cards, the textured finish is great. I can see why many enjoy them but for me the thinner Fourniers have the edge.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Great review PZ.

This goes to show you how different everyone’s preferences for cards are. I feel that the Prestige’s, although the thickest cards of the bunch, are also the slickest and have the most “deck explosions” for me. I prefer a thinner card, using pre-USPC Kems as my gold standard for feel. They have a buttery smooth shuffle that I enjoy.

I’ve recently had a chance to try out Da Vinci and Fournier cards for the first time(not counting the Prestiges as Fournier in this regard). The Da Vinci’s are quality cards, the textured finish is great. I can see why many enjoy them but for me the thinner Fourniers have the edge.

Pre-USPC are one deck I have not had the pleasure of (knowingly) using. I do have Fourniers, and if I recall I may have a deck of Da Vinci's that I bought used, but I don't have either in great quantity.

Of course, personal preferences will always dictate deck preference, which is why I try to detail as much info as possible. I don't believe any of the three decks in the Battle Royale to be poor choices, and my players will make the ultimate decision on which manufacturer will get the most usage.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Round 5: Shuffle
For a deck to be "good" it needs to shuffle well. Poor shuffling decks are why most of us have made the switch to plastics. When a deck shuffles easy, finding someone to deal is easy.

I do not profess to be a dealing ninja. I have not shuffled a billion hands. I have not even dealt a royal flush (1 in 30,939 hold’em hands). I can tell you that the Desjgn felt different. I paused my shuffle test and took the cards to the sewing table...

The Desjgn were a smidgen wider. You might not think this would mater much, but you will note that I detected it before I measured them. It affected me. This could be a knockout blow to the Desjgn cards. If my custom cut card does not cover the face, these decks will be for sale inside of a week...

The cut cards work. They are exactly the same size of the deck. I don't have a micrometer, but if it's not exact, it's plenty close. You can pick up the deck and not feel a tiny bump if the cut card was mixed in - a situation I experience frequently enough. I prefer the cut card to have a little overhang to make it quicker to find in those situations. A slightly wider cut card also helps sloppy dealers protect the bottom of the stub. Personally, I think the Desjgn are too wide, but it's not deal breaker (no pun intended).

Going back to the poker table, I tried to “quick shuffle”. A riffle shuffle done very quickly, thus more prone to errors. The Desjgn had about as many errors as the Bicycle. I stopped the Copag test early, because they are the least friendly cards to shuffle as they have less glide. Admittedly, the Copag had a few games (<5 and on the first table to be broken down in a night) on them, while the Desjgn were new. The extra flexibility on the Desjgn make the quick shuffle a little easier with the riffle, but that flex occasionally "popped" a card into the air with a rushed shuffle. I would not put these into a Shuffletech. Between the increased flexibility, and the decreased thickness, I strongly suspect it would eat these like nachos.

Round 5: Bicycle Prestige > Desjgn > Copag

In 5 rounds there wasn't a clear winner. In the next installment, We'll give you the judges decision.

 

[v1pe]

Great review! As an aside, when did the "pre-USPC" era end?

 

[RichMahogany]

Great review! As an aside, when did the "pre-USPC" era end?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Playing_Card_Company

 

[Poker Zombie]

After careful review of the scorecard, The Desjgn were a very slight favorite over the Bicycles, and Copags took up a respectable third. Final score 40-39-21. It was very tight Between the Desjgn and the Bicycle Prestige though. The Desjgn will get the main table at my next event, and I will be listening closely to player comments. I'm sure I'll get a lot of "these are too slippery" comments, but that happens anytime I open a fresh deck - even with Copags.

I hope to revisit this thread after getting a few games in to report on how cards have worn over the test of time. If you are digging through old threads and this is the last post I've made in the thread, give it a little bump. I get useful ideas sometimes, but then forget about them and fail to execute.

 

[Jambine]

Early smart money is on the Prestige. Hard to beat a budget card that out-performs most high-end offerings. Waiting for the bell... where's that hot Round card carrier gal?

Love Prestige. Great value.
Received my Design yesterday, but have not opened them. Only got 2 set-ups, as I'm trying to keep inventory under 100 (the card drawer won't hold much more). I expect they will handle and wear like other Design cards I have, and I'll contribute a quick review when I open them

 

[T_Chan]

What a great review, thanks PZ.

Your last category, the shuffle, is one of the main reasons I went out and got the Desjgn cards. They are the most flexible cards I've used, thus the easiest to shuffle for me. As someone who deals often, either as the dedicated dealer at my own games, or dealer for others at my fundraisers are just as a hired dealer at home games, the ease of shuffle is huge. I insist on a 2 deck system, even as the dedicated dealer where I shuffle the 2nd deck myself preflop, so I'm shuffling a lot every night. Bicycle, Fournier, Copag, Kem, none of them shuffle as nice as the Desjgns IMO.

To my surprise, the Desjgn cards also fan really nice on a table. My gaming suede is very slick, I cannot fan copags on the table to inspect the decks. With the Desjgns, I'm able to do that no problem.

 

[Mac128k]

I thought the aces were questionable. Now I look at them and think fallopian tubes...



Hot girl with a sign... just for Dave...
View attachment 129433
They are simply not usable at distance. I've even had requests for "Magnum" index cards from my group. Someday I may oblige. I'll also buy manhole covers for chips, and invite the crew of the International Space Station to join in as they fly overhead.

Comedy gold, Jerry! Gold, I tell ya!