Tourney Basic Tournament Set Breakdowns for Beginners UPDATED (1 Viewer)

[Legend5555]

I see a lot of questions from people about what are good chip set breakdowns for tournaments. Someone will always say ask @BGinGA . Or search and you will find. I don't know if I'm just going to be adding to the nonsense, but I thought I'd post my general opinions on basic T25 and T100 based sets and blind structures. This is geared toward those with less experience in running tournaments.

Before I get there, I'd like to share some general wisdom I've picked up over the years of running tournaments.

1. You don't need as many chips as you think. But you don't have to be frugal if you don't want to be.

2. You must have enough bank in your 2 (sometimes 3) highest denomination chips to cover the total chips in play. You typically will only have 2 maybe 3 denominations in play at the end. So whatever those are, they must total up to a minimum of all the chips that started in play.

3. You should learn to color up via chip races. But if you just like to round up, you will need to change out a few of the mid denominations from the big stacks to help cover the round ups.

4. Don't be afraid of making change during play or coloring up even some higher denomination chips during color ups. You will have to typically because the breakdowns I have listed below don't budget many small denom chips.

5. No starting stack should ever have a single chip that is more than 25% of the starting stack value. If you have a T10k starting stack with a 5k chip in it, situations can arrise where it is impossible to break that chip via change in play.

With that, below is my general minimum recommended breakdowns for 1 and 2-table tournaments w/rebuys. My preference is to have enough to cover 1 rebuy per player. These are meant to be augmented as you see fit and are merely a guide for the minimums I think are necessary for running a tournament. I don't recommend using the 8/8 split for T25 based structures, but it can work. It's just a little heavy on making change. Denominations in yellow are needed for color ups.

I have also included some general blind structures. Antes are of course optional. I have listed the traditional per player antes in the structures. If you use the single Big Blind Ante, they are always equal to the size of the BB, and you can start them at any point you like.

Edit: Added blind structures. Cleaned up points on color ups based on solid feedback.

 

[JustinInMN]

All of your points 1-5 make perfect sense to me. As for the small chips in play, having enough to make 3 of the next highest chip to me is right, but two is fine as well.

The only quibble I would have is to consider T500 a color-up chip in base T25. Really I would only use T1000 for color ups, even in base T25. But that is still compatible with your advice on point 4. Say you have T3K worth of T25 in play. You are only bringing 3 chips from the bank. Have the biggest stacks turn in enough chips to make whole chips, providing you the change you need for the others. Or even better get these players to start "buying up" the chips to be removed a few minutes before the color up.

To go along with point 4, here's a post I made on coloring up a while back.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/how-to-create-a-tournament-structure.32785/page-2#post-628586

 

[JRReynolds6181]

You don't need as many chips as you think.

Hmmmmmm.....

 

[BGinGA]

Agree with @JustinInMN -- using T500 chips for color-ups really isnt good chip management, since they never serve as workhorse chips (and thus aren't needed providing the starting amounts were adequate), and they are also subsequently removed later in the event.

Also disagree with point #3 -- contrary to popular opinion, rounding up does not really require extra chips beyond those already in play, except perhaps a single chip of the very highest denomination.

Nice write -up -- you should add it to the PCF Resource section.

 

[JScott]

This would have been so helpful to Tourny newbies like me.

I may use your super economy T100 1-table structure for my order this week

 

[shorticus]

Thank you for this @Legend5555

 

[JScott]

@Legend5555 Say you want to use plaques for the $5000 for the 1 table super economy T100 base. Would you suggest using a T20K Plaque for re-buys to save having to buy 70 $5K plaques? I've run out of chip colors for the set I'm building

Say it's a STT, 20K T100 Base with 2-rebuys pp

 

[Legend5555]

@Legend5555 Say you want to use plaques for the $5000 for the 1 table super economy T100 base. Would you suggest using a T20K Plaque for re-buys to save having to buy 70 $5K plaques? I've run out of chip colors for the set I'm building

Say it's a STT, 20K T100 Base with 2-rebuys pp

Not possible. For example, let's say you are playing at a 10 handed table and you lose 2.5k to 8 different players and then get a 20k plaque as a rebuy. Who is going to be able to reasonably make change for you? Sure, some player will have more than 20k available, but they will have to change out a lot of their chips for you. Then they will have to eventually use that plaque and make a ton of change themselves. It's not a good situation.

 

[BGinGA]

@Legend5555 Say you want to use plaques for the $5000 for the 1 table super economy T100 base. Would you suggest using a T20K Plaque for re-buys to save having to buy 70 $5K plaques? I've run out of chip colors for the set I'm building

Say it's a STT, 20K T100 Base with 2-rebuys pp

You won't need 70x T5000 plaques. Assuming 10/4/7/2 starting stacks with two re-buys, you will only need 32x T5000 plaques:

100 x T100
40 x T500
80 x T1000 (includes 10x for T100 color-up)
32 x T5000 (includes 4x for T500 color-up, plus 8x for two re-buys)

Even planning for 50% re-buys only brings the total needed up to 44, and should be more than sufficient (typical re-buy rate is 20%-33%). If your group is regularly playing 20K events and getting two re-buys per person, the starting stakes aren't high enough.

A typical blind structure for a 10-player T20K event will end before the T1000 chips can be removed from play, so denominations larger than T5000 really aren't very useful.

 

[JScott]

Yeah, I meant 2 re-buys pp allowed, but not that every person will re-buy 2x. 32 is well within budget, 44 is getting a bit above, but we can make it work.

Let's be honest, I don't really love tourney's, but I want to have the ability, and I really love the style of these chips/plaques I'm looking at. It'll probably only be 8 people max, but I want the ability to grow the game. I don't mind it being a bit of a turbo tournament as I sure as hell don't have the patience for 4-5 hours of tournament poker.

EDITED:
@Legend5555 thanks to your help bud, I decided to go with your 1-Table Super economy. I added 2 $25K plaques for shits and giggles, but kept the rest the same.

 

[Truffs]

This has all been excellent, thank you @Legend5555

 

[Legend5555]

This has all been excellent, thank you @Legend5555

You're welcome.

 

[Thomacetti]

You're welcome.

I also used your suggested T25 2 table breakdown for my AST set.

Any insights on T5 tourney breakdown ?

 

[Legend5555]

I also used your suggested T25 2 table breakdown for my AST set.

Any insights on T5 tourney breakdown ?

I've never put much thought into a T5 setup. But if I had to wing it...

Assuming you start at 5/5, I'd scale it similarly to the T100 setup.

10x T5 (or 15x if you are inclined)
8x T25 (or 7x)
7x T100
2x T500 (optional)

You could try 4x T25, but the reason you can get away with so few T500 in a T100 setup is that the next chip up in that order is T1000. And the T1000 chip has way more use than the T500. But in T5, the T25 gets more use than the T500 does in a T100 base.

As far as the extra T500 or T1000 for chip ups. Just go with whatever. Just remember that you need to be able to cover the chips in play with just your two highest denoms by the finishing levels.

 

[Machine]

@Legend5555 can you give an avg time for the blind structure, suggested break spots and typical duration please?

 

[Legend5555]

@Legend5555 can you give an avg time for the blind structure, suggested break spots and typical duration please?

Avg time depends on level length and number of players. Generally, I find that you can expect it to last until there is somewhere between 30-60 total big blinds in play. Also depends a little bit on whether you use antes or not. Breaks can go wherever you want honestly. I'm not a hard ass about breaks. I schedule most of them for 5 or 10 minutes, but they inevitably last longer in most cases as people are eating and smoking outside.

 

[JustinInMN]

@Legend5555 can you give an avg time for the blind structure, suggested break spots and typical duration please?

Personally I think the floor for level time should be 2 minutes x the max number of players you seat at a table. So if it's 10 max, do at least 20 minutes, if it's 9 max, do 18 minutes, etc...

Observing this floor means the button will usually go around the table once per level. Any less that that and players may get pretty annoyed with slow play. I would say it's preferable to play a structure with larger blind increases and fewer levels to maintain this bare minimum duration, than more levels at a shorter duration.

For any structure, I am a fan of structuring levels by multiplying 1-2, 1-3, 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, and 8-16 by the lowest chip in play. Color up every time you reach a "2-4" level of the next chip in play and repeat the list. (If you need to start even deeper, optional "1-1" level at the start.)

So for base T5, perhaps something like:
5-10, 5-15, 10-20, 15-30, 20-40, 30-60, 40-80, (remove T5 chips)
50-100, 75-150, 100-200, 150-300 (remove T25 chips)

200-400, 300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, 800-1600 (remove T100 chips)
1000-2000, 1500-3000 (remove T500 Chips)

Alternatives after 800-1600 to combine the T100 and T500 color up:
Alternative #1: 1200-2400, 1600-3200 (remove T100 and T500 chips), continue below
Alternative #2: (remove T100 and T500 chips) 1000-2000, 1000-3000, continue below

2000-4000, 3000-6000, 4000-8000, 6000-12000, 8000-16000

So if you do 9 players and a T2000 starting stack and assume an additional 5 re-entries (probably on the high side) that would put T28K in play. You 20BB rule puts the likely ending around 800-1600 level anyway. So that would mean 16 levels times 18 minutes or 288 minutes, or 4 hours, 48 minutes of play. If that's too long, consider starting at 10-20 instead and that will save 36 minutes right there, but it means your starting stack is only 100BB instead of 200BB. (You also could consider just changing the starting stack to T1000 for similar effect, that would still save two levels, but by the tournament ending on 400-800 instead of 800-1600)

I usually schedule breaks where the color ups will take place, but this isn't required. Once you get good at coloring up, the process should take 3-5 minutes per table you could get away with a "pause" when you reach a color up instead of a full blown break.

 

[Mandos]

5. No starting stack should ever have a single chip that is more than 25% of the starting stack value. If you have a T10k starting stack with a 5k chip in it, situations can arrise where it is impossible to break that chip via change in play.

Question about this: I'm currently preparing a 9max freezeout deepstack/high roller event where I'm planning on playing with a t500 base and 300k starting stacks and blinds starting at 500/1000 (mostly modeled on this structure from @BGinGA : https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/making-a-higher-denom-tourney-set.34768/post-636105).
The catch is that I'm short on T25k since the set is principally designed for T100 MTT (I only have 40 T25k). If I do 300k, my starting stacks would be the following:
10 x T500
20 x T1000
15 x T5000
4 x T25000
1 x T100000
Total: 300000

My question is, will starting with a T100k chip in each stack lead to problems making change? This theoretically breaks the "no single chip more than 25% of the stack rule", but if I were to make it 400k starting stacks it would no longer break the "rule" but wouldn't really change anything - if anything, it would make it worse I think. Those of you with more experience or imagination than me: where can this go awry?

 

[Legend5555]

Question about this: I'm currently preparing a 9max freezeout deepstack/high roller event where I'm planning on playing with a t500 base and 300k starting stacks and blinds starting at 500/1000 (mostly modeled on this structure from @BGinGA : https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/making-a-higher-denom-tourney-set.34768/post-636105).
The catch is that I'm short on T25k since the set is principally designed for T100 MTT (I only have 40 T25k). If I do 300k, my starting stacks would be the following:
10 x T500
20 x T1000
15 x T5000
4 x T25000
1 x T100000
Total: 300000

My question is, will starting with a T100k chip in each stack lead to problems making change? This theoretically breaks the "no single chip more than 25% of the stack rule", but if I were to make it 400k starting stacks it would no longer break the "rule" but wouldn't really change anything - if anything, it would make it worse I think. Those of you with more experience or imagination than me: where can this go awry?

It will probably be fine since the average number of 25k chips per player (4) is enough to break a 100k chip if it comes to that. My bigger concern would be if you have enough 100k chips to properly chip everyone up later in the tourney.

 

[Mandos]

It will probably be fine since the average number of 25k chips per player (4) is enough to break a 100k chip if it comes to that. My bigger concern would be if you have enough 100k chips to properly chip everyone up later in the tourney.

I have 20 100k chips so there will be 11 left for color ups and only 1 per player should be required since they have exactly 100k in 500-5000 to start.

 

[BGinGA]

Question about this: I'm currently preparing a 9max freezeout deepstack/high roller event where I'm planning on playing with a t500 base and 300k starting stacks and blinds starting at 500/1000 (mostly modeled on this structure from @BGinGA : https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/making-a-higher-denom-tourney-set.34768/post-636105).
The catch is that I'm short on T25k since the set is principally designed for T100 MTT (I only have 40 T25k). If I do 300k, my starting stacks would be the following:
10 x T500
20 x T1000
15 x T5000
4 x T25000
1 x T100000
Total: 300000

My question is, will starting with a T100k chip in each stack lead to problems making change? This theoretically breaks the "no single chip more than 25% of the stack rule", but if I were to make it 400k starting stacks it would no longer break the "rule" but wouldn't really change anything - if anything, it would make it worse I think. Those of you with more experience or imagination than me: where can this go awry?

25% = typically no issues with making change.
50% = almost certainly will have issues with making change.
33% = might have issues with making change.

Biggest problem is that early-on, it might take more than two players to break down a 100k chip into playable chips, if stacks are still all somewhat equal. As the biggest stacks get bigger (and players get eliminated), this becomes less and less of a problem.

Bigger issue for me is having enough 25k chips in play to make wagers later in the event. I don't think you will be able to remove all of the 5k chips.

 

[Mandos]

Biggest problem is that early-on, it might take more than two players to break down a 100k chip into playable chips, if stacks are still all somewhat equal.

I see. Yeah if that happens I can use some of the other denominations that were left in the bank to make change, though that's not ideal. Or maybe I'll just make uneven starting stacks and have some people start with 8x25k instead of 4x25k and 1x100k. I wouldn't want to deal with this if I had 2 tables but with one I think it should be ok and I can manage anything that comes up.

Bigger issue for me is having enough 25k chips in play to make wagers later in the event. I don't think you will be able to remove all of the 5k chips.

That's a valid point. Removing the 5k would occur at level 15 (50k/100k) which is right around where I expect the tournament to end, or at any rate I expect to be down to 2 or 3 players max. Seems like having the 2.7 million chips in play in 40 25k chips and 17 100k should be playable if a bit light (am I wrong?), but if we get to that point and there are still more stacks in play I could leave the 5k chips on the table.

Of course I would prefer to have more 25k but I want to get all of the 5k and most of the 25k that I do have in play for once and I think this is a decent chance to do so. This is the final tournament of the year for our league which plays with base T100 every month so I want it to feel different.

Thanks for all the valuable feedback!

 

[BGinGA]

My experience is that acceptable amounts of total chips on the table at tournament end is best between 80-200 with a sweet spot of around 120-160 total (80/20 mix of the top two denominations). Less than 40 chips total seems almost unplayable.