Basic question to raise or to go all-in (1 Viewer)

[Santa123]

Very basic question.
Lets say you are in a spot where you like to raise. Should you always have left a full potsized bet after your raise? And if your stack would be less should you push all-in?

For instance
- effective stack is 100
- Player A bets 20 into 40. Pot is now 60.
- Player B wants to raise:
=> raise to ~60. After a call by Player A the pot would be 160. Effective stacks are now only 40.
=> or just go all-in with 100?

Thoughts?
What do you think you should have left.

Tagging @OfficerLovejoy @Eriks : the online PROs ;-)

 

[Frogzilla]

Try opposite way, figure out the raise size, then frequency, then do you have a hand that raises.

In the example you have, there might be spots where you want a min raise range which is 1/2 pot behind. Most of the time you are going to settle on an all in as the correct size. Probably never is that 3x sizing leaving 1/4 pot the right play.

 

[Kentucky]

Do you want a call or not?

If you want to get all of V’s money in the pot 2 more even sized bets might be more callable. If you want V to fold then a bigger bet now might have more fold equity. The point I think you are feeling is that the follow-up 40 bet has very little FE.

 

[grebe]

Very basic question.
Lets say you are in a spot where you like to raise. Should you always have left a full potsized bet after your raise? And if your stack would be less should you push all-in?

For instance
- effective stack is 100
- Player A bets 20 into 40. Pot is now 60.
- Player B wants to raise:
=> raise to ~60. After a call by Player A the pot would be 160. Effective stacks are now only 40.
=> or just go all-in with 100?

Thoughts?
What do you think you should have left.

Tagging @OfficerLovejoy @Eriks : the online PROs ;-)

On what street?
What are you trying to accomplish? What are you targeting in villain's range?
How did the pot get to 20?

I mean, I guess it depends.

TLDR: it's no limit. Bet whatever you want.

 

[Santa123]

Frist of all thanks a lot @Frogzilla @Kentucky @grebe.

I think an example would help.

No limit texas holdem, cashgame:

Villian on the button
Hero in the BB

Villian raises pre and Hero calls. Villian conti bet on the flop and got called.
Board got one or two high cards and is not dry.

Villian is betting the turn again.

effective stack is 100
Villian bets 20 into 40. Pot is now 60.

Hero wants to raise from time to time with hands that are on the board at the top of his range like sets and two pair or flush, straight or combo draws.
Hero will raise more often with his best hands and less often with his draws if he thinks Villian tends to call to wide.
Hero will raise more often with his draws and less often with his best hands when Villian plays too nitty.

Now. In this scenario I will always raise something around 3x or 4x Villian bet as long as his bet is somehow reasonable sized.

I will never min raise. @Frogzilla would you ever minraise in that scenario. With what handrange and why?
And if you would like to raise with a size of 3x how big should the remaining effective stack be at least relative to the pot?

@Kentucky , hope the example and thoughts make clear that I am not aiming for a strategy that try to accomplish the best outcome by changing sizing but shifting handranges.

 

[grebe]

Frist of all thanks a lot @Frogzilla @Kentucky @grebe.

I think an example would help.

No limit texas holdem, cashgame:

Villian on the button
Hero in the BB

Villian raises pre and Hero calls. Villian conti bet on the flop and got called.
Board got one or two high cards and is not dry.

Villian is betting the turn again.

effective stack is 100
Villian bets 20 into 40. Pot is now 60.

Hero wants to raise from time to time with hands that are on the board at the top of his range like sets and two pair or flush, straight or combo draws.
Hero will raise more often with his best hands and less often with his draws if he thinks Villian tends to call to wide.
Hero will raise more often with his draws and less often with his best hands when Villian plays too nitty.

Now. In this scenario I will always raise something around 3x or 4x Villian bet as long as his bet is somehow reasonable sized.

I will never min raise. @Frogzilla would you ever minraise in that scenario. With what handrange and why?
And if you would like to raise with a size of 3x how big should the remaining effective stack be at least relative to the pot?

@Kentucky , hope the example and thoughts make clear that I am not aiming for a strategy that try to accomplish the best outcome by changing sizing but shifting handranges.

-why would you not consider min raising? You are almost guaranteed a call if the V has any kind of equity at all.
-If you want to be balanced, I think you can just jam always here with draws and value and not be very out of line to what a solver would do.
-I would vary my play based on my opponent. If I were playing somebody decent that can think thru a hand, I would probably just jam any hand I wanted to raise (bluffs, combo draws, made hands). I don't think a standard oesd or flush draw should really be jamming turns though....if you are going to bluff with just 8-9 outs, you should do it on the flop where you have potential for 2 cards to make your hand instead of just one. If I were playing somebody not very good, that would let me get away with min raising (and would call me down with things less than top pair, and chasing gutshots), I would totally min-raise, then jam the river.

 

[Eriks]

@Eriks : the online PROs ;-)

Wow a lot of undeserved credit there!

 

[perfectjawnz]

Frist of all thanks a lot @Frogzilla @Kentucky @grebe.

I think an example would help.

No limit texas holdem, cashgame:

Villian on the button
Hero in the BB

Villian raises pre and Hero calls. Villian conti bet on the flop and got called.
Board got one or two high cards and is not dry.

Villian is betting the turn again.

effective stack is 100
Villian bets 20 into 40. Pot is now 60.

Hero wants to raise from time to time with hands that are on the board at the top of his range like sets and two pair or flush, straight or combo draws.
Hero will raise more often with his best hands and less often with his draws if he thinks Villian tends to call to wide.
Hero will raise more often with his draws and less often with his best hands when Villian plays too nitty.

Now. In this scenario I will always raise something around 3x or 4x Villian bet as long as his bet is somehow reasonable sized.

I will never min raise. @Frogzilla would you ever minraise in that scenario. With what handrange and why?
And if you would like to raise with a size of 3x how big should the remaining effective stack be at least relative to the pot?

@Kentucky , hope the example and thoughts make clear that I am not aiming for a strategy that try to accomplish the best outcome by changing sizing but shifting handranges.

You are trying to give too broad of an example - a situation like this is very dependent on ranges and the exact board you're looking at. It's also pretty hard to get to an SPR of 2.5 OTT in a single raised pot.

e.g.
100bb eff
BU opens 3bb, BB calls.
pot 6.5bb, SPR ~15

Flop comes whatever, but in order to get to this SPR OTT, BU is going to have to bet 14bb into 6.5bb, to bring pot OTT to 34.5 with effective stacks of 83bb, bringing the SPR to ~2.5.

This is where ranges come into play - what is your calling range on the flop? if it's QT9r you'll have a lot more calls than AKJshh - and what board types is BU betting 2.5x pot otf? And because of the range differences, it's impossible to suggest what to do in such a broad sense and have a realistic discussion.

 

[Frogzilla]

Frist of all thanks a lot @Frogzilla @Kentucky @grebe.

I think an example would help.

No limit texas holdem, cashgame:

Villian on the button
Hero in the BB

Villian raises pre and Hero calls. Villian conti bet on the flop and got called.
Board got one or two high cards and is not dry.

Villian is betting the turn again.

effective stack is 100
Villian bets 20 into 40. Pot is now 60.

Hero wants to raise from time to time with hands that are on the board at the top of his range like sets and two pair or flush, straight or combo draws.
Hero will raise more often with his best hands and less often with his draws if he thinks Villian tends to call to wide.
Hero will raise more often with his draws and less often with his best hands when Villian plays too nitty.

Now. In this scenario I will always raise something around 3x or 4x Villian bet as long as his bet is somehow reasonable sized.

I will never min raise. @Frogzilla would you ever minraise in that scenario. With what handrange and why?
And if you would like to raise with a size of 3x how big should the remaining effective stack be at least relative to the pot?

@Kentucky , hope the example and thoughts make clear that I am not aiming for a strategy that try to accomplish the best outcome by changing sizing but shifting handranges.

Your options are realistically only 2x and 5x with that stack depth. So yes, there are some times when 2x would make more sense than 5x. For your example of BB vs BU single raise pot, check-call flop, a situation like turn pairing bottom flop card would favor a small check raise size.