Bad Beat Re-Buy chip (1 Viewer)

[Roslindale]

I would like to give a Re-Buy chip to those that have a bad-beat in my home tournament games (Freezout).

Does anyone have any thoughts, opinions, or experience with using a rebuy button used in this way?

I have been hosting a home game for over a year now, about 1.5 times per month. We have been playing a 20k Tournament with anywhere from 6 to 9 guys. There are opportunities to get to 14 count, but it hasn't happened yet.

We used to play with Re-Buy and even a Top-Off allowed. Our games would go for hours, which is fine for almost all of us. We have switched to a Freeze-Out the last few times, without a rebuy option, mostly due to a later start time.

A new problem has come up with the Freezout game. During the later rounds, the blinds take up a much higher percentage of the total chips in play. There is certain amount that would rather continue with a Freezeout Tournament and leave the rebuys out. However, I have had complaints about the blinds being too big compared to chips in play.

I have increased the Tournament to 25K, from 20K, and a 3k chip bonus for being on time, from 2k.

I like the Re-Buys and will use them in some games.
But for the sake of an important contingent of the regulars,the Freezout games will be played often.

Any ideas on how to solve the problem of number of chips in play in this scenario?

Ideas I am toying with:
*extend blinds to 25 or 30 minutes at the 11th blind.
*re-buys for bad beats(perhaps Ace high flush or better in your hand to receive a re-buy chip.(of course one would have to pony up the cash should they decide to use the chip)
*allowing re-buys but limiting the top-off to 40,000 chips..(if you have 21,000 chips at the top off and rebuy cut off, the person could rebuy but would only be allowed to get 19,000 more chips, forfeiting 6,000 of the 25,000 of a top off)

Below is the blind structure. We usually dont use the ante at the 13 level and on. ( our games always make at least 11th level, and usually 13 to 15th level)

Below is the picture sent out to the group with prizes for early rsvp's.

 

[LotsOfChips]

A new problem has come up with the Freezout game. During the later rounds, the blinds take up a much higher percentage of the total chips in play. There is certain amount that would rather continue with a Freezeout Tournament and leave the rebuys out. However, I have had complaints about the blinds being too big compared to chips in play.

Blinds increasing to the point where they are huge in comparison to the chips in play is the main feature of a tournament. If that doesn't happen, the tournament might never end. If your players don't like it , perhaps they should play Cash Games.

*extend blinds to 25 or 30 minutes at the 11th blind.

You said that the reason you went to freeze-outs was that the games were lasting too long. Increasing the blind times will extend the game time, cancelling the reason for having a freeze-out in the first place

*re-buys for bad beats(perhaps Ace high flush or better in your hand to receive a re-buy chip.(of course one would have to pony up the cash should they decide to use the chip)

Personally I think this is a bad idea. If you are going to allow rebuys for those who bust, then anyone who busts should (IMO) be allowed to rebuy (once - allowing multiple rebuys encourages sloppy play). How would you feel if you busted out with a K high flush but couldn't rebuy because it wasn't an A high flush?

*allowing re-buys but limiting the top-off to 40,000 chips..(if you have 21,000 chips at the top off and rebuy cut off, the person could rebuy but would only be allowed to get 19,000 more chips, forfeiting 6,000 of the 25,000 of a top off)

Again, not a fan. If you allow everyone with 20,000 chips to top up to 40k, the player who sweated and struggled to build his chip stack to 40k is now on the same terms as everyone else in the tournament. This negates the first 2 hours of play!

IMO, either stay with the Freeze-out, and explain to the complainers that this is the nature of the tournament, or run a single rebuy tournament where anyone who busts can rebuy.

As far as top-ups go, this will extend the game duration, which seems to be the reason that you went to a freeze-out. If time is really a concern, don't allow both top ups and rebuys in the same game. Having a strict freeze-out tournament does limit the prize pool, and can be frustrating for those who bust out early, so I get why you would want to have at least one of those options available.

One idea is to allow one rebuy OR one top-up (must bust to rebuy, anyone who hasn't re-bought can top up with a full starting stack value at the end of the rebuy period). You could even include the cost of the rebuy/add-on in the tournament buy-in cost (double your normal entry fee).

That somewhat discourages the LAG all-in players early in the tournament, as they might miss out on the add-on, but everyone can rebuy if needed and gets the add-on if they don't need to rebuy. You know exactly how many chips will be in play at the end of the night, so you can adjust the blinds to end the tournament at a time you decide.

You can incorporate the rebuy chip this way. Everyone gets one at the start of the game. Those who surrender it to rebuy won't be able to surrender it to add on.

 

[Roslindale]

@LotsOfChips
Thank you so much for taking the time to thoughtfully respond to the post and the various points. Its much appreciated. I have even shared the link to the thread to two of the players in the game, so we can all gain perspective. (They are not currently PCF members... though this thread may inspire them to join)

I would like to take the time to respond/comment on each of your observations. I will do that by tomorrow evening. I just have a lot on my plate right now... however, i will choose one point to comment on.. will check now to see which one.

 

[Roslindale]

You said that the reason you went to freeze-outs was that the games were lasting too long. Increasing the blind times will extend the game time, cancelling the reason for having a freeze-out in the first place

We did initially turn to freezeout for time considerations. After playing the Freezout, many of us, including myself, gained an appreciation of the Freezout format.
The Freezout certainly has a different vibe than when the option to Re-Buy is available.
There is certone player who is in favor of the Freezout over Re-Buy.... however I think almost all of us have appreciation for both formats and thier differences.

***more to come. THANK YOU again***

 

[Poker Zombie]

How many players do you have? That information would help in running a few calculations.

Beyond that, I would follow @LotsOfChips advice - especially the single rebuy idea (which I put into effect in my games 13+ years ago which was greatly appreciated by the group as a whole). After a while, you will be able to anticipate how many rebuys you will have on a given night, and will be able to adjust the blind structure accordingly. For our group, we see from 28%-35% of the player rebuy, depending on starting stack and blind structure. Tournaments will and at a very predictable time.

I discourage add-ons (though I have one special tournament where they are allowed), because I prefer to place all players on equal footing. Unlimited rebuys or a willy-nilly add-on just provides an advantage for the player with more money.

I also host a single freezeout each year. I like different formats to test players in different ways.

 

[LotsOfChips]

The Freezout certainly has a different vibe than when the option to Re-Buy is available.

Truer words were never spoken!

I play with one group where there are unlimited rebuys for the first 90 minutes, and several players will frequently rebuy 4-5 times in that time period. Once the rebuy period ends, they tighten up their game completely.

I play in another group with unlimited rebuys, but half price for a full starting stack. Once again, completely loose play before the end of rebuys, tight as anything afterwards. This just rewards and encourages loose play, which is fine if that is what you want and everyone is on board with it.

I much prefer a single full price rebuy or freezeout format, mostly because I play a somewhat tight style and find it easier to play when others are doing the same. Downsides to a freezeout are:

• smaller prize pool (unless you increase the buyin)
• players that bust early are done for the night, sometimes after only an hour or less (and I've seen 4 all ins preflop with AA vs KK vs JJ vs AKs on the opening hand - thankfully there was a single rebuy per player available)

 

[tabletalker7]

I don't know what the correct term for this is, but I refer to it as a "reload" tournament. Everyone gets their usual starting stack and one (or more than one if you want) rebuys chip. If someone busts out during the rebuy part of the tournament, they cash in their chip for a new starting stack. When the rebuy part has ended, anyone who still has their chip gets a starting stack worth as an add-on. This allows weaker players to rebuy, while rewarding stronger players with an add-on for the later rounds.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Truer words were never spoken!

I play with one group where there are unlimited rebuys for the first 90 minutes, and several players will frequently rebuy 4-5 times in that time period. Once the rebuy period ends, they tighten up their game completely.

I play in another group with unlimited rebuys, but half price for a full starting stack. Once again, completely loose play before the end of rebuys, tight as anything afterwards. This just rewards and encourages loose play, which is fine if that is what you want and everyone is on board with it.

I much prefer a single full price rebuy or freezeout format, mostly because I play a somewhat tight style and find it easier to play when others are doing the same. Downsides to a freezeout are:

• smaller prize pool (unless you increase the buyin)
• players that bust early are done for the night, sometimes after only an hour or less (and I've seen 4 all ins preflop with AA vs KK vs JJ vs AKs on the opening hand - thankfully there was a single rebuy per player available)

I play with the same group - freezeout and single rebuy. The skilled players play notably differently, while the pure rec player makes few or no adjustments to their game.

Switching from unlimited (within the first 8 levels) to single rebuys really moved the needle for the group as a whole, as we had one player that threw down rebuys at an insane rate, taking the fun away from the pure rec players. The single rebuy practically necessary as we have players that drive an hour each way (and one who flies in a couple times a year). You want to assure those players a good amount of fun for their effort.

 

[tabletalker7]

Also, how long do you wish for your games to run? Your blind schedule is a little aggressive, and if you want things to last longer I can easily make you something more suitable.

 

[legonick]

FYI, I didn't read the entire thread yet. Read them all...@tabletalker7 beat me to it. Although I think the more widely accepted name is settling on "pre-buy".

-----

Have you considered a pre-buy? I'm going to be experimenting with this, probably in late February as I'll likely cancel my January game due to the COVID-19 numbers in my area.

Basically my setup is going to be T10K in chips, special "blue chip" worth T10K. If the player busts before the 2nd break, blue chip gets turned in for T10K in chips (second life). At the 2nd break, everyone with a blue chip remaining is forced to turn in the blue chip for T10K, and it's a freezeout from there on. Just a fun way to guarantee at least a certain amount of play, even for those total cooler situations. Of course, a double-cooler could happen, but...well, that's poker.

I'll be experimenting with it, not sure how it'll go. The one thing I don't like about it is, it feels like you should get more than T10K when turned in at the 2nd break, to incentivize people to play smart and not loose. Basically, you are better off utilizing it early in a way because the T10K early will represent more BBs than collecting it at the 2nd break. That said, I guess it balances out, as you don't want to use it early then when that 2nd break hits, everyone gets that addon and you are the shorty.

 

[legonick]

Where in MA are you? Are you actually in Boston? How many players do you get? What are your stakes?

 

[Roslindale]

Where in MA are you? Are you actually in Boston? How many players do you get? What are your stakes?

We are in Roslindale, near the square. Its actually in Boston, yes.

We had 9 last Saturday, from 12 committed...

We play a $40 buy-in tournament usually. This weekend we are playing a $40 buy in on Saturday. If we have two tables going, and the knocked out want to play more, we will have a cash going ready of .10c/.20c with $40 buy-in on that.

Were are you located?

I am going to be putting on a game in February that will be open to PCF members

 

[Roslindale]

nds increasing to the point where they are huge in comparison to the chips in play is the main feature of a tournament. If that doesn't happen, the tournament might never end. If your players don't like it , perhaps they should play Cash Games.

Thank you for putting in so concisely and clear.
One of the players who had the issue with the chips in play vs blind levels read your comment. He has acknowledged the point to a degree...(he's Greek and he likes to argue/debate/disagree.... it's just a part of him)
He did bring up a valid point, that adjusting the blind structure to take into account the number of participants, starting stacks, re-buy options, top-off options, and desired length of play is way to a better set up.
He said he will send me a link to a program that sets the blind structures.

*** Is there a software/app that is better than others at building a blind structure for a tournament already built that people have had good success with? ***

I noticed @tabletalker7 in the commented that he could build or help build a better blind structure... I'll certainly reach out to see how that would be.

 

[tabletalker7]

*** Is there a software/app that is better than others at building a blind structure for a tournament already built that people have had good success with? ***

I just make mine - most of us use Tournament Director for our tournament poker software. It does have a feature in it that will make a blind structure, but it really REALLY sucks. Seriously, just tell me what starting stacks are, average number of players, and how long you want it to last. I can make these things pretty quickly.

 

[THRA5H3R]

Out of curiosity, do you have legally blind players that need those huge indexes? (also, I'm kind of in awe of them, might need to find a setup...)

 

[Roslindale]

Out of curiosity, do you have legally blind players that need those huge indexes? (also, I'm kind of in awe of them, might need to find a setup...)

No, we don't have any blind players at our game normally.


I used those for the first time last week. I thought they were kinda cool. I bought them because i had just purchased the Shuffletech card shuffler. That machine was described as working best with Copag cards. I saw COPAG MAGNUM INDEX cards and jumped. ( Thepokerstore.com has them, as does others.. they delivered very quick, and I placed another order today)
An unintended plus on those cards is that I shared a picture of a hand in a group text with some Cornhole friends. The hand was clearly visible and comments came

Random pic from that night:

 

[tabletalker7]

I bought them because i had just purchased the Shuffletech card shuffler.

Copag does work, but I found that Fournier and Kings work better in mine

 

[Roslindale]

Copag does work, but I found that Fournier and Kings work better in mine

Interesting.. I'll look into that. I had not even heard of those brands at all. It would be nice to see what they look like and how they feel.
( we used to use Faded Spade before the Shuffletech)

 

[legonick]

We are in Roslindale, near the square. Its actually in Boston, yes.

We had 9 last Saturday, from 12 committed...

We play a $40 buy-in tournament usually. This weekend we are playing a $40 buy in on Saturday. If we have two tables going, and the knocked out want to play more, we will have a cash going ready of .10c/.20c with $40 buy-in on that.

Were are you located?

I am going to be putting on a game in February that will be open to PCF members

Ahh cool. I'm in Merrimack, NH. Solid trek to get to Roslindale, but I'd be interested to hear more about your PCF game, but no promises.

9-handed or 10- is perfect for me! Pretty good for the COVID-19 numbers right now to get that many people out of their holes, LOL.

 

[legonick]

I just make mine - most of us use Tournament Director for our tournament poker software. It does have a feature in it that will make a blind structure, but it really REALLY sucks. Seriously, just tell me what starting stacks are, average number of players, and how long you want it to last. I can make these things pretty quickly.

Tournament Director is the nuts. Even if you use another program for building the blind structures, this should be what you are using to display blinds. It's a bit much to learn, but that's because of how powerful it is.

So I play only up to 9-handed, so easier to manage than jumping to 2 tables. What I do to keep things ending in the same block of time is adjust the blind times for number of players. So I have the same blind amount structure, but different tournament setups for 9-, 8-, 7-, and 6-handed. Then just load up the appropriate one in Tournament Director and you are good to go!

Here is a thread which got a little action discussing this - how to adjust a tournament based on number of players: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...-adjustment-based-on-number-of-players.79228/

 

[LotsOfChips]

*** Is there a software/app that is better than others at building a blind structure for a tournament already built that people have had good success with? ***

While there are websites available that can suggest blind structures, it is fairly easy to figure it out by yourself.

Conventional wisdom says that the tourney will finish at or near the level where the BB is 5% of the chips in play (total number of chips = 20 X Big Blind).

If you go with the “pre-buy” concept, then you know exactly how many chips will be in play. If you allow optional rebuys, it depends somewhat on your player’s styles, but 25% of players rebuying is a good starting point.

Blinds should increase by 25-50% each level. Try to avoid level changes of 100% (other than the first change from 25/50 to 50/100), and try to average around 33%.

Adjust the blind times for the tourney duration that you want, but keep them to between 15 to 20 minutes for most home tourneys.

Search this forum for blind structures, especially those from @BGinGA , who is a tournament structure guru.

Good luck, and have fun!

 

[LotsOfChips]

While there are websites available that can suggest blind structures, it is fairly easy to figure it out by yourself.

Conventional wisdom says that the tourney will finish at or near the level where the BB is 5% of the chips in play (total number of chips = 20 X Big Blind).

If you go with the “pre-buy” concept, then you know exactly how many chips will be in play. If you allow optional rebuys, it depends somewhat on your player’s styles, but 25% of players rebuying is a good starting point.

Blinds should increase by 25-50% each level. Try to avoid level changes of 100% (other than the first change from 25/50 to 50/100), and try to average around 33%.

Adjust the blind times for the tourney duration that you want, but keep them to between 15 to 20 minutes for most home tourneys.

Search this forum for blind structures, especially those from @BGinGA , who is a tournament structure guru.

Good luck, and have fun!

Below is a structure that I have been toying around with. If you have 8 players, a 10k starting stack and everyone gets either a 10k rebuy or 10k add on, you will have 160k chips in play,. Tournament should end when BB is 8k, or round 15 (around 4 hrs). If you did 20k starting stacks and rebuys/add-ons, you should end at level 17, or around 4.5 hours

I haven't actually played with this structure yet, but it is fairly smooth (no huge jumps, mostly 33% or 50%), and allows for a break every 75 minutes or so. Note that you chip up at every break when smaller chips are no longer needed.

You could reduce the blind times to 12 minutes (a little fast IMO) if you have extra players and still want to end around the same time, or you could make the blind increases a little more aggressive. Point is, play around with it until you find something that works for you...

Level​	Duration​	Game Type​	Game Name​	Ante​	Small Blind​	Big Blind​	Start Time​	Chip Up​
Round 1​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$25​	$50​	0:00​	no​
Round 2​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$50​	$100​	0:15​	no​
Round 3​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$75​	$150​	0:30​	no​
Round 4​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$100​	$200​	0:45​	no​
Round 5​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$150​	$300​	1:00​	no​
Break 1​	10m​	​	​	​	​	​	1:15​	yes​
Round 6​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$200​	$400​	1:25​	no​
Round 7​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$300​	$600​	1:40​	no​
Round 8​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$400​	$800​	1:55​	no​
Round 9​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$600​	$1,200​	2:10​	no​
Round 10​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$800​	$1,600​	2:25​	no​
Break 2​	10m​	​	​	​	​	​	2:40​	yes​
Round 11​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$1,000​	$2,000​	2:50​	no​
Round 12​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$1,500​	$3,000​	3:05​	no​
Round 13​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$2,000​	$4,000​	3:20​	no​
Round 14​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$3,000​	$6,000​	3:35​	no​
Round 15​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$4,000​	$8,000​	3:50​	no​
Break 3​	10m​	​	​	​	​	​	4:05​	yes​
Round 16​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$6,000​	$12,000​	4:15​	no​
Round 17​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$8,000​	$16,000​	4:30​	no​
Round 18​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$10,000​	$20,000​	4:45​	no​
Round 19​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$15,000​	$30,000​	5:00​	no​
Round 20​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$20,000​	$40,000​	5:15​	no​
Break 4​	10m​	​	​	​	​	​	5:30​	yes​
Round 21​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$30,000​	$60,000​	5:40​	no​
Round 22​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$40,000​	$80,000​	5:55​	no​
Round 23​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$60,000​	$120,000​	6:10​	no​
Round 24​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$80,000​	$160,000​	6:25​	no​
Round 25​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$100,000​	$200,000​	6:40​	no​

Would love some feedback from experienced Tournament hosts on this structure!

 

[Roslindale]

Below is a structure that I have been toying around with. If you have 8 players, a 10k starting stack and everyone gets either a 10k rebuy or 10k add on, you will have 160k chips in play,. Tournament should end when BB is 8k, or round 15 (around 4 hrs). If you did 20k starting stacks and rebuys/add-ons, you should end at level 17, or around 4.5 hours

I haven't actually played with this structure yet, but it is fairly smooth (no huge jumps, mostly 33% or 50%), and allows for a break every 75 minutes or so. Note that you chip up at every break when smaller chips are no longer needed.

You could reduce the blind times to 12 minutes (a little fast IMO) if you have extra players and still want to end around the same time, or you could make the blind increases a little more aggressive. Point is, play around with it until you find something that works for you...

Level​	Duration​	Game Type​	Game Name​	Ante​	Small Blind​	Big Blind​	Start Time​	Chip Up​
Round 1​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$25​	$50​	0:00​	no​
Round 2​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$50​	$100​	0:15​	no​
Round 3​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$75​	$150​	0:30​	no​
Round 4​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$100​	$200​	0:45​	no​
Round 5​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$150​	$300​	1:00​	no​
Break 1​	10m​	​	​	​	​	​	1:15​	yes​
Round 6​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$200​	$400​	1:25​	no​
Round 7​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$300​	$600​	1:40​	no​
Round 8​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$400​	$800​	1:55​	no​
Round 9​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$600​	$1,200​	2:10​	no​
Round 10​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$800​	$1,600​	2:25​	no​
Break 2​	10m​	​	​	​	​	​	2:40​	yes​
Round 11​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$1,000​	$2,000​	2:50​	no​
Round 12​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$1,500​	$3,000​	3:05​	no​
Round 13​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$2,000​	$4,000​	3:20​	no​
Round 14​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$3,000​	$6,000​	3:35​	no​
Round 15​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$4,000​	$8,000​	3:50​	no​
Break 3​	10m​	​	​	​	​	​	4:05​	yes​
Round 16​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$6,000​	$12,000​	4:15​	no​
Round 17​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$8,000​	$16,000​	4:30​	no​
Round 18​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$10,000​	$20,000​	4:45​	no​
Round 19​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$15,000​	$30,000​	5:00​	no​
Round 20​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$20,000​	$40,000​	5:15​	no​
Break 4​	10m​	​	​	​	​	​	5:30​	yes​
Round 21​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$30,000​	$60,000​	5:40​	no​
Round 22​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$40,000​	$80,000​	5:55​	no​
Round 23​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$60,000​	$120,000​	6:10​	no​
Round 24​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$80,000​	$160,000​	6:25​	no​
Round 25​	15m​	No Limit​	Texas Hold 'Em​	$0​	$100,000​	$200,000​	6:40​	no​

Would love some feedback from experienced Tournament hosts on this structure!

Good morning,

Thank you so much for putting time into creating a chart. I'll list the parameters that we will have below.

It's been a busy time of year for me. I'm sorry for the late reply.

Today is the big day. We will have a game tonight and will institute multiple changes.

The basic plan is:
20k starting stack with a 3k on time bonus. Everyone gets a free "re-buy/top-off chip". The blind structure will be adjusted. Everyone gets a free "show-me" chip.


Its looking like a solid 9 people, with the possibility of up to 11.
We've always done 20 minute blind times and would like to stay at that for consistency sake.


I noticed that you didn't have an ante at any point above. That totally makes sense, especially in relation to the issues that we sre trying to address.
Do you think with everyone getting double the amount of chips via the rebuy/top-off, that an ante might be an option? And if so... at how many people? For example, I'm sure 7 people would play very differently than 12 people.

 

[LotsOfChips]

So say you get 10 people, and everyone arrives on time (math with 10 people is easier)...

20k starting plus 2k on time plus 20k add-on/rebuy = 42k x 10 = 420k chips in play

5% of that = 21k

Using the blind structure above, things would end around Level 18. With 20 minute blinds, that is about 6 hours plus breaks, and the breaks would come every 100 minutes. Probably longer than you want for a home game.

Possible solutions:

• Shorter blinds
  • 15 minutes gets you 4:45 including breaks
  • for 8 people or less at a table, unless your table is super slow, everyone should still get one deal per level.
  • I'm assuming that with 10 players or more you have 2 tables (combine when 8 players left)
  • 9 player single table STT may be a bit tight to get everyone a deal each round, 10 player STT you probably won't get around the table in 15 minutes
• Smaller starting stack
  • 10k w/ 1k bonus ends around Level 16
  • w/ 20 minute blinds that's about 5.5 hours, still a bit long
• Remove some of the blind levels for a more aggressive rise
  • I suggest to remove Levels 3, 5 & 7 as the early levels only increase by a few hundred rather than several thousand
  • that ends at around 5 hours plus breaks.
  • Remove one or two more to shorten it further.
  • Note that this affects your chip-up schedule somewhat.
• Add antes for the later levels.
  • sorry, I don't have the experience to predict how that will affect end times,
  • you may be able to search the forum for that
  • antes affect all of the players, not just those facing a blind in the next hand, so you may get some complaints, although your players are used to them, so it shouldn't be too much of a shock (edit - unless you use Big Blind Ante, which I personally despise)
• Adjust the blinds in the above table to be a bit more aggressive (higher percentage increase between levels)
  • try to avoid doubling the levels, especially in later levels, as that is really noticeable when your players are facing blinds right after the increase (which is probably what people were complaining about)
  • averaging around 50% is aggressive but not extreme.
  • for comparison, the table above hovers mostly between 33% and 50%
• Combination of 2 or more of the above

I can't really answer your question about the best time and amount of antes. I would guess that starting them at 100 when the BB gets to increases of 1000 would be about right, but that requires keeping the smaller chips in play much longer than if there were no antes (unless you go for a Big Blind Ante, which IMO is a kick in the teeth for the BB)

Best of luck

 

[Roslindale]

@LotsOfChips

Thank you so much for this and taking the time to share. It is much appreciated and a big help.
I'll keep you posted, along with replying to the rest of the thread, in the coming days.
For now, got so much to get done to be ready for a 5pm doors opening to guest time.

 

[Roslindale]

Its going good so far... blind #8.

Loving the improvements!

 

[Roslindale]

And this just happened!!!

 

[LotsOfChips]

Live poker is so rigged...

LOL, congrats!

 

[TexRex]

There’s a science behind determining how long a tournament will last. Generally, with one formula, when the total of blinds and antes = 5% of the total pool, the tournament should end. A second formula is when the BB = 5% of the total pool, the tournament will end. While those two formulas yield different results, reality should be between the two inclusively. I don’t use tournament software, but follow this, and 80-90% of the time, the time falls within that range.

Here is the legend for these formulas: A = ante; SB = Small Blind; BB = Big Blind; $ = Total Chip Value in tournament

Formula A: A+SB+BB=#*$*.05
Formula B: BB=#*$*.05

I’m fairly certain these formulas provide a reasonably accurate way to measure the length of a tournament based on personal observation of tournaments I’ve been in and based on comments by others at other tournaments. A particular hand could affect that and shorten the time.

There are five main factors in tournament design. They are rarely all tied together, but they need to be to predict your tournament time. I believe they are all closely tied together though.

There are five factors that determine the length of your tournament. Alter one and you alter the tournament time. The factors, in no particular order, are:

The ratio of starting chips to the big blind (SC/BB) -- A tournament is deep stacked if over 150 BB, very short stacked at 100 BB. A player is considered to be competitive at 50 BB, short stacked at 30 BB, seriously short stacked at 20 BB, and desperately short stacked at 10 BB. By itself, this is a good guide, but this is somewhat in a vacuum. You have to look at the average blind increases too.

Average blind increases – The average of how rapidly blinds go up. Most people use increases of 1.25-1.67 (25% to 67% increases) and think 2.0 or higher is too high. Three basic philosophies are [a] consistent increases, start slow and increase, and [c] start fast and decrease. Every good tournament follows one of these 3 basics or a variation of them. If blind creases are all over the place, it can be predictable regarding time, but it’s like driving on a really bumpy road.

Length of rounds and time per hand -- 1 hour or more per round is considered slow; 30 minutes about average, 15 or less very fast, and under 10, lightning fast. Most calculations of times I’ve seen use an average hand time of about 2 minutes, so anything less than 2 minutes per player at maximum players per table is probably too fast as it doesn’t give every player a chance at every position every round. Generally tournaments are calculated using the 2 minutes per hand assumption, even if people don’t realize that is the assumption.

Note: Not every group plays at 2 minutes a hand. If the pace is slower, you have to adjust for this. If it takes 3 minutes a hand, your blinds must be 50% longer to end at a particular blind level. Reality is that tournaments need a certain number of hands more than a certain number of blind rounds.

Think about a 60-minute football game. If the average play takes 30 seconds, the game will last about 120 plays. If the average play takes 20 seconds, the game will last about 180 plays. Those two paces are very different. There will be more of everything in the second game – more plays, more yards, more points, etc. Poker tournaments are the same way. If you know the average hand length in your group, you can calculate more accurately.

Number of players – It takes longer for more players to be eliminated. However, this is not a straight-line ratio. If you have half as many players as anticipated, that doesn’t mean the tournament will only last half as long.

Fewer players tend to play longer per player in my experience. I’ve been calculating average time per player for several years, and this is very consistent. The more players you have, the sooner knockouts start happening. While my measurements have been done with a maximum of 23 players, what I’ve found is that it takes less than 30 minutes average playing time to eliminate twice as many players.

Total chip count and BB (big blinds) in tournament -- Two different formulas can determine how long a tournament will last. One is when Antes (A), Small Blind (S), and Big Blind (B) added together equals 5% of the total amount of chips in play (T), the tournament will end. This is expressed in several ways, but one is A+S+B = T*.05. A second formula is when B equals 5%, expressed as B=T*.05. My experience is these are good outside parameters and the actual time is likely to fall in between these times the vast majority (80-90%) of the time.

Allowing rebuys, add-ons, bonuses, etc., affects the total chip count and therefore the length of the tournament. What really counts though, is the number of big blinds these things add at the time they occur. For example: If you have a tournament with starting stacks of 200BB, and about halfway through, players could do an add-on of the same amount, then you have to look at how many additional BB that is right then. If that add-on is 20 more BB, to accurately account for that, you calculate the starting stacks with 220 BB instead of 200.

Doubling the starting stacks does not double the length of the tournament. A rebuy will add a little bit to the tournament time, but its timing is important. A rebuy at the 1 hour mark will lengthen the tournament more than if it’s at the 3 hour mark.

Note: I’ve been tracking this for several years. If I plan on a 4 hour tournament (20 minute playing rounds), I’ve found that over 80% of the time that tournament will last within one round of the planned ending time.

These five factors work together. None can be ignored. Changing any one of them will affect the length of a tournament. The five main factors in tournament design lead to how good the tournament structure is.

***
We play 12 freezeout tournaments a year. They are planned for 4 hours with 20 minute blinds. Our average blind increase is about 58% (50-67%) through Round 11, then it goes to a 35% average increase (25-42%) in Rounds 12-18. Those 51 planned 4 hour freezeouts average 3:54 each. That's pretty predictable.

Our planned 5 hour games are less predictable. They involve either a rebuy, a rebuy or add-on, or much larger starting stack. Those 4 planned 5 hour tournaments average 4:22 each. Our 4 planned 6 hour tournaments average 5:28 each.

Lesson: the more things you do like rebuys and add-ons, the less predictable times will be, but chances are good it won't be longer than you planed if you limit rebuys either by number, time, or both.

Sorry, I forgot to ask the questions:

• How long you want the tournament to last (in playing time)?
• Do you like aggressive blind increases, gentle blind increases, or something in between? You can develop a good structure with any of these if you know how to do it.
• Do you prefer freezeouts or some form of rebuy or add-on? If you like rebuys, will you limit the number? Will you limit how late in the tournaments you will allow them?

 

[LotsOfChips]

Post game report...?