Backed-off for Counting (Blackjack) (1 Viewer)

[chkmte]

This week I ventured into one of my local casinos - as a patron. Several years ago I was a Surveillance Supervisor at this location and most of the management remembers me. Additionally, the current overnight Surveillance Supervisor is a person whom I taught to count cards, etc.

So, it's no suprise (I guess) that I was backed-off from playing early Friday morning. Although I'd not been to this casino to play in well over a year, I got the itch and made three visits this week.

I began each session playing poker and lost several hundred dollars each time. Then, I proceeded to the pit and played both Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em and Double-Deck Blackjack. I'd estimate my win in the pit this week was approximately $1,200 over the course of three seperate sessions.

Anyway, what to do? This is a $350-$450 million dollar property that drops $1m on average each morning. My action is but a drop in the bucket to them. My wagers ranged from $20 x 2 hands to $75 x 2 hands - dropping to $10 x 1 hand if-and-when the shoe went negative. This bet-spread is somewhat conservative in my opinion.

I'm frustrated. Thoughts?

 

[dennis63]

So they know you and are aware that you are a casino supervisor who knows how to count. They let you play anyway, and let you win $1,200?

Time to say, "Thank you" and take your act on the road.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Backed off from Bar

This week I ventured into one of my local casinos - as a patron. Several years ago I was a Surveillance Supervisor at this location and most of the management remembers me. Additionally, the current overnight Surveillance Supervisor is a person whom I taught to misdirect and grab, etc.

So, it's no surprise (I guess) that I was backed-off from the bar early Friday morning. Although I'd not been to this casino to drink in well over a year, I got the itch and made three visits this week.

I began each session playing poker and lost several hundred dollars each time. Then, I proceeded to the bar, and every time the register would open, I'd reach in and grab a handful of bills. I'd estimate my win at the bar this week was approximately $1,200 over the course of three separate sessions.

Anyway, what to do? This is a $350-$450 million dollar property that drops $1m on average each morning. My grab is but a drop in the bucket to them. I was only grabbing $10s and $20s, and stealing olives when the bartender looked negative.

I'm frustrated. Thoughts?

 

[DJ Mack]

^ Card counting is not theft.

 

[BGinGA]

It is to the casino.

 

[DJ Mack]

It is to the casino.

Of course. They’d rather you make a donation at the door and go home rather than have to have all this pretense of games and prizes. So much overhead.

But still, card counting is in no way shape or form the same as distracting an employee and reaching into the till at the bar. It’s just a poor analogy, sorry.

 

[BiGGyT]

Save up and go to tunica biloxi atlantic city las vegas reno carson city all of washington state etc. etc.

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

For my personal edification, at what point does a business ask a known card counter to leave? After they've won $10,000? $50,000? $100,000?

 

[Mental Nomad]

For my personal edification, at what point does a business ask a known card counter to leave? After they've won $10,000? $50,000? $100,000?

In Atlantic City, the amount won/lost is irrelevant. If they're determined to be counting and using a bet spread that means they're winning on average, the house will take countermeasures.

It's not about what happened on prior hands... It's what's going to happen on the next hands.

They pay less attention to smaller tables and so small players may last longer before being noticed, but it's not because of some sort of cash threshold. It's just that they can't watch everyone all the time.

 

[upNdown]

In Atlantic City, the amount won/lost is irrelevant. If they're determined to be counting and using a bet spread that means they're winning on average, the house will take countermeasures.

It's not about what happened on prior hands... It's what's going to happen on the next hands.

They pay less attention to smaller tables and so small players may last longer before being noticed, but it's not because of some sort of cash threshold. It's just that they can't watch everyone all the time.

Do the dealers care? Are they allowed to? Surely they're the ones who could spot counters first, and tip off their supervisor or put boss or whomever.

 

[DJ Mack]

Obviously I don't play enough blackjack (actually almost never except a few hands in social situations), but is card counting really still a thing? It seems to me that with all the countermeasures these days like 6-8 deck shoes, cut cards, mid shoe entry rules, surveillance, etc that it would be tough to find a table where you pull it off to any real degree of profitability.

 

[Kain8]

Do the dealers care? Are they allowed to? Surely they're the ones who could spot counters first, and tip off their supervisor or put boss or whomever.

Being a former dealer, if we or the supervisor even has a suspicion of card counting by someone, we were told to cut the shoe from a typical 60/40, to a 50/50 spread. That often knocks out whatever SLIGHT edge the card counter has.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Do the dealers care? Are they allowed to? Surely they're the ones who could spot counters first, and tip off their supervisor or put boss or whomever.

Most dealers don't care. Some do. It's not their job - they're supposed to focus on managing the game.

Who's job is it? The Floor Person and the Pit Boss. Floor Person spots them, the Pit chooses how to manage the situation.

A lot of us worked two roles - dealer and floor. You'd find out what you're doing when the schedule comes out. People like that are likely to to help out their floor when they notice something... Especially if they aspire to go up the management ranks.

But it's totally not about wanting people not to win. It's about the keeping the game going. The game is the product they sell, and they need to have a profit margin on the product to stay in business.

A card counter is a customer who knows how to turn that profit margin into a loss. The casino is not put in place to run at a loss before even accouting for the lights and the booze and the staff and the rent.

A house that is lax on counters finds themselves with more and more of them at the tables... That loses money for the house, but they are also not good customers. They are often miserable players who don't have fun. It's like going to play poker and finding the table is full of Old Man Coffee players.

I think counters would last a lot longer if they were having fun with the other players... I've seen a Pit Boss reluctant to mess with a table with an obvious (to us) counter at a full table that was having fun; most of the table was betting higher than the counter's spread. They let it go for while, preferring to wait until the game started to break up. (I left before that happened.)

 

[upNdown]

I notice you said you were playing double deck blackjack. What's the deal with that? If it's just blackjack with two decks instead of six, does it exist to attract card counters (stupid if the casino doesn't allow it) because the count could get favorable quickly? Or does it exist to dissuade card counters, since a favorable count is like to end sooner?

 

[BGinGA]

finding the table is full of Old Man Coffee players.

Hey now..... I'm old, I'm a man, I drink coffee (all day/night long, even at the poker table)........ exactly whatcha trying to say here?

 

[upNdown]

Hey now..... I'm old, I'm a man, I drink coffee (all day/night long, even at the poker table)........ exactly whatcha trying to say here?

Uh, I've played with you online. You're no OMC (despite the fact that you always have it)

 

[Mental Nomad]

Hey now..... I'm old, I'm a man, I drink coffee (all day/night long, even at the poker table)........ exactly whatcha trying to say here?

But you're not an OMC, because you're not playing poker for the free coffee..... :coffee:

(PS: I'm also a coffee fiend. The highest - end stuff I serve at poker is actually the coffee.)

 

[Poker Zombie]

A house that is lax on counters finds themselves with more and more of them at the tables... That loses money for the house, but they are also not good customers. They are often miserable players who don't have fun. It's like going to play poker and finding the table is full of Old Man Coffee players.

This is what I was alluding to in my "grab from the till" metaphor. The house calculates for the number of butts in the seats, and staffs accordingly. They pay out money and anticipate getting a particular amount back (give or take variance, of course). Any seat taken that does not give up the anticipated amount is costing them money.

It's not a question of legality, it's about depriving the house of....

• $1200 in losses (due to smart play I might add)
• filling the chair that could be occupied by another patron (or closing the table if not necessary)
• Drinks (if free in said casino)

All said, the patron buying drinks at the bar and grabbing $1200 is probably less impactful to the casino's bottom line than the card counter, though it is difficult to determine how much of that $1200 was just a hot deck (variance) and how much was counting (skill).

 

[chkmte]

Backed off from Bar

This week I ventured into one of my local casinos - as a patron. Several years ago I was a Surveillance Supervisor at this location and most of the management remembers me. Additionally, the current overnight Surveillance Supervisor is a person whom I taught to misdirect and grab, etc.

So, it's no surprise (I guess) that I was backed-off from the bar early Friday morning. Although I'd not been to this casino to drink in well over a year, I got the itch and made three visits this week.

I began each session playing poker and lost several hundred dollars each time. Then, I proceeded to the bar, and every time the register would open, I'd reach in and grab a handful of bills. I'd estimate my win at the bar this week was approximately $1,200 over the course of three separate sessions.

Anyway, what to do? This is a $350-$450 million dollar property that drops $1m on average each morning. My grab is but a drop in the bucket to them. I was only grabbing $10s and $20s, and stealing olives when the bartender looked negative.

I'm frustrated. Thoughts?

Terrible, terrible analogy. But, that's how some people 'think' I suppose.

 

[chkmte]

For my personal edification, at what point does a business ask a known card counter to leave? After they've won $10,000? $50,000? $100,000?

They shouldn't be allowed to ask a card counter to leave - and that's exactly what the courts ruled in Atlantic City (circa 1982). If you're going to offer the game, that's the risk you take on - that some folks understand how to play it better than others.

 

[chkmte]

I notice you said you were playing double deck blackjack. What's the deal with that? If it's just blackjack with two decks instead of six, does it exist to attract card counters (stupid if the casino doesn't allow it) because the count could get favorable quickly? Or does it exist to dissuade card counters, since a favorable count is like to end sooner?

Counting two decks is the same as counting six or eight decks. The casino offers double-deck as it is typically a "pitch" game. In other words, the dealer pitches the cards to the patron and that patron can pick the cards up and look at them. It's really just a preference.

FWIW, a casino could deal 100 deck blackjack and I/others could count it. Without getting into a super-long explanation, it's all just mathematics. What is crucial is the "penetration". So, if a casino deals 6 deck blackjack but the cut card comes out after say, 4 decks for example - that's bad penetration and more difficult to capitalize on.

 

[chkmte]

Obviously I don't play enough blackjack (actually almost never except a few hands in social situations), but is card counting really still a thing? It seems to me that with all the countermeasures these days like 6-8 deck shoes, cut cards, mid shoe entry rules, surveillance, etc that it would be tough to find a table where you pull it off to any real degree of profitability.

You're right, it is difficult to find a good game. There are a number of counter measures that they could and should take, but if they don't it's on them IMO.

 

[chkmte]

Do the dealers care? Are they allowed to? Surely they're the ones who could spot counters first, and tip off their supervisor or put boss or whomever.

From my experience (and I'm a table games dealer myself) the dealer has their hands full simply dealing the game. Not only that, most dealers I know don't know how to count. Finally, the dealer wants that player to win - for that's when they get tips. So no, the dealer isn't going to say anything unless the player is a complete dick.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Terrible, terrible analogy. But, that's how some people 'think' I suppose.

I was trying to be nice.

• In the metaphor I corrected your terrible spelling and grammatical errors.
• I referred to your counting as "smart"
• I called your play "skill"

but if you're going to question "thinking"

• Learn to spell
• Learn proper grammar
• Figure out that casinos - that you used to work for - do not like to lose money
• Accept a compliment when it comes along, especially when it's from someone far more intelligent
• Learn the difference between a metaphor and an analogy.

Peace out. Unwatching thread now.

 

[chkmte]

This is what I was alluding to in my "grab from the till" metaphor. The house calculates for the number of butts in the seats, and staffs accordingly. They pay out money and anticipate getting a particular amount back (give or take variance, of course). Any seat taken that does not give up the anticipated amount is costing them money.

It's not a question of legality, it's about depriving the house of....

• $1200 in losses (due to smart play I might add)
• filling the chair that could be occupied by another patron (or closing the table if not necessary)
• Drinks (if free in said casino)

All said, the patron buying drinks at the bar and grabbing $1200 is probably less impactful to the casino's bottom line than the card counter, though it is difficult to determine how much of that $1200 was just a hot deck (variance) and how much was counting (skill).

With reference to the mathematics of the game...

If the game in question has a 1% edge for the house from the top of the shoe (for example), then two decks in the (running) count jumps to +8, the true count would be +2. At this point, the house/player advantage would be exactly nothing. So, we're talking about fractions of percentages as far as card-counting goes. However, when a person is counting they should be playing perfect basic strategy or even advanced strategy based on the count (i.e. illustrious 18, etc).

My experience is that almost nobody in the pit and often nobody in surveillance truly understands the full scope of card counting. They just know that they're "bad" for the bottom line and ask them to leave to cover their ass. I can respectfully and humbly say that I have read about, studied and practiced blackjack way more than anyone in any casino within a days drive. That's the only way to really beat a casino - to really dig in and know more about the game than they do.

 

[chkmte]

I was trying to be nice.

• In the metaphor I corrected your terrible spelling and grammatical errors.
• I referred to your counting as "smart"
• I called your play "skill"

but if you're going to question "thinking"

• Learn to spell
• Learn proper grammar
• Figure out that casinos - that you used to work for - do not like to lose money
• Accept a compliment when it comes along, especially when it's from someone far more intelligent
• Learn the difference between a metaphor and an analogy.

Peace out. Unwatching thread now.

Thank you...for unwatching the thread.

 

[Mojo1312]

I am fairly ignorant on this subject. I am not adept at the art of counting cards and I don't really understand the legalities. From the outside, it appears that casinos behave in their own interest, even if may go against the law. "What are you going to do?" seems to be their position in these situations. It would be different IMO if you had a partner or two, but that is not the case.

I did witness our local casino shut down the craps table after a player won $60,000 during his session. But shutting down a game and kicking a player out are two completely different actions.

Obviously, you would like to have some type of recourse. I wish I could help, but in a way you have made a case against yourself based upon the history you have with the casino. You may have to come to terms with the fact that you are going to have to get your fix somewhere else.

 

[Ronoh]

From my experience (and I'm a table games dealer myself) the dealer has their hands full simply dealing the game. Not only that, most dealers I know don't know how to count. Finally, the dealer wants that player to win - for that's when they get tips. So no, the dealer isn't going to say anything unless the player is a complete dick.

As a former dealer in Vegas, while I wil agree that most dealers don't know how to count I'm gonna disagree with the rest . While there are a few games were the dealer at times may have their hands full dealing the game blackjack should never be one of them. A chimp could likely be taught to deal blackjack, there's really not much to it. Personally I always kept a count... started out of boredom and once I had it it became something I'd do subconsciously.

In my experience "the dealer wants the player to win" is an old wives tale. With some exceptions (pretty girls, people I was genuinely having fun with or people who tipped REALLY well) I wanted everyone to lose. Not sure why, maybe it's like those people who put themselves in a more likely situation to end up happy by rooting for the best sports teams . When tips are pooled and it takes being tipped a thousand dollars to boost my daily tips for the day by five bucks really makes the "when they win I win" thing largely irrelevant.

 

[chkmte]

As a former dealer in Vegas, while I wil agree that most dealers don't know how to count I'm gonna disagree with the rest . While there are a few games were the dealer at times may have their hands full dealing the game blackjack should never be one of them. A chimp could likely be taught to deal blackjack, there's really not much to it. Personally I always kept a count... started out of boredom and once I had it it became something I'd do subconsciously.

In my experience "the dealer wants the player to win" is an old wives tale. With some exceptions (pretty girls, people I was genuinely having fun with or people who tipped REALLY well) I wanted everyone to lose. Not sure why, maybe it's like those people who put themselves in a more likely situation to end up happy by rooting for the best sports teams . When tips are pooled and it takes being tipped a thousand dollars to boost my daily tips for the day by five bucks really makes the "when they win I win" thing largely irrelevant.

That's interesting. Our tips are also pooled and I want folks to win. Perhaps I like the underdog. ;$

 

[Ronoh]

That's interesting. Our tips are also pooled and I want folks to win. Perhaps I like the underdog. ;$

Nah... you probably just like people