Apex/Black Aurora Poker Chip Cases

Which APEX Poker Chip Case capacity do you want us to make first?


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So what you're suggesting is that if you want the version with the compartmental base, then just be patient and rather than buying 5 or 6 of the initial version, maybe buy just 1, or none, and then when the version with the compatrmental base comes out, it's at that point you'd can pull the trigger on a quantity buy, right?
Not sure how long the time gap will be between the two versions but already a huge leg up on BryBelly so I’ll be buying the first version :)
 
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allforcharity

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So what you're suggesting is that if you want the version with the compartmental base, then just be patient and rather than buying 5 or 6 of the initial version, maybe buy just 1, or none, and then when the version with the compatrmental base comes out, it's at that point you'd can pull the trigger on a quantity buy, right?
If you're holding out for a compartmentalized base, then yes, this is what you should do. It will also likely cost you less to do it this way.
Another option is to buy a few of the initial version to test them out. Then when the version that you really want comes out, sell your previous ones and buy more of the new version. Just like what we do with chips. You might be out on shipping plus any depreciation in value for used product. It all depends on whether you must have something now, or if you can afford to wait.

I probably won't need compartments. Setups come in their own boxes, anyway. A dealer button or two might make its way into the nooks and crannies, or just carried separately - no big deal for me. I'd rather have a solid base than something with a hollow in it, if there are going to be 10kg of chips and racks on top.
 

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If I'm seeing the latest rendering correctly the screw holes for the handle to base are two halves of a threaded hole that will be held together by the welding of the outside of the handle pieces together to form a single threaded hole for the 5 screws to bite into? My concern would be if the weld starts to fail at all those two halves only need to separate a little and suddenly the screws are no longer going to hold because the two halves of the screw holes are now coming apart.
 

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If I'm seeing the latest rendering correctly the screw holes for the handle to base are two halves of a threaded hole that will be held together by the welding of the outside of the handle pieces together to form a single threaded hole for the 5 screws to bite into? My concern would be if the weld starts to fail at all those two halves only need to separate a little and suddenly the screws are no longer going to hold because the two halves of the screw holes are now coming apart.
But it will probably fit into a shallow fitted slot in the base, so you've got that lateral support keeping the two halves together, no?
 

ekricket

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If I'm seeing the latest rendering correctly the screw holes for the handle to base are two halves of a threaded hole that will be held together by the welding of the outside of the handle pieces together to form a single threaded hole for the 5 screws to bite into? My concern would be if the weld starts to fail at all those two halves only need to separate a little and suddenly the screws are no longer going to hold because the two halves of the screw holes are now coming apart.
Why isn’t the handle just one solid piece?
 

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One way to never have to worry about screws would be to make it so the handle has to slide though the bottom piece. If the handle piece had an edge on the bottom of it that would carry the load of the base not screws. Idk just throwing it out there.

246658
 

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One way to never have to worry about screws would be to make it so the handle has to slide though the bottom piece. If the handle piece had an edge on the bottom of it that would carry the load of the base not screws. Idk just throwing it out there.

View attachment 246658
Just spitballing. I understand some physics, but not the lingo.
There may be an issue with tensile strength on injection molded plastic. The handle can hokld a lot of weight in the vertical axis, but trying to change direction is asking a lot. Suddenly, all the weight is carried at the corner between the X and Y axis.

Using 3-4 screws, puts the "change of direction" on the metal (not plastic) screw heads. That weight gets distributed more if he uses a washer.
 

BGinGA

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So are the feet easily removed if so desired? Or make them an optional add-on item, perhaps?

Protruding feet are not conducive to carriers loaded with chips to sitting on poker table felt/foam, as others have noted.
 

BGinGA

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Fwiw, I think your single largest and best-selling item would be an injected-molded tray (with optional slide-on lid) that sits on top of a full chip rack (capable of holding cards, plaques, dealer buttons, and other miscellaneous items).
 

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So are the feet easily removed if so desired? Or make them an optional add-on item, perhaps?

Protruding feet are not conducive to carriers loaded with chips to sitting on poker table felt/foam, as others have noted.
I asked the same question with the same concern about a month ago, and was told that they were to be screw on and easily removed.
 

Poker Zombie

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From everything posted so far, the feet will be removable, and Mario installs them himself. There will be 4 holes where the feet go after you remove them.

I store my birdcages on a shelf. When I need them, I slide them to the end of the shelf then lift. When putting the chips away, I set the cage near the end of the shelf, and slide it to the back (or as far as it can go before it hits more chips). Unless the rubber is very hard, it will wear down with all the sliding. For this reason, plus the dents in the felt concern, I will be removing the feet as well.
 

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Wow! A lot of comments, which is great! I'll try to address it all, but first, progress: Ordered all three members of the 3D printed prototype and 25 pegs over the weekend. They'll be printed in black ABS plastic (think LEGO-type density). As of yet, the orders are still showing "placed," which I'm sure means they're not being printed just yet. I expect to have them in about a week, based upon previous experience with 3D printers, but I'm using a new company, so I can't be sure. I'll drop a line to keep you all posted.

Forgive me if I miss anything in the following lines, guys. While I usually carefully weigh each word I use, there's a lot to cover, here.

----------------------------------------------------

...I would have thought the attachment would be a screw vertically through the handle with the load now on the body of the screw rather than the threads.
Were it not for the constraints put on us by the nature of the injection molding process, this might be a viable idea. The problem is that injection molding requires two plates, primarily, which are pushed together and pulled apart horizontally. This requires that a part's features should be formable in one of two directions, for purposes of this example, we'll call them up or down. For us to add any feature that comes in from the side, would require adding a side action--another piece of aluminum designed to come in from the side--which would make the tooling significantly more complicated and expensive.

Oversimplified Example Tooling for the APEX:

246825


246826


246827


246828


You can see how it would be difficult, maybe impossible, to add anything that makes screw holes from the side. It could be done in-house as a secondary operation, but that adds significantly to the labor and assembly time. Also, the thickness of any given part can only be so thick, so a sideways screw wouldn't be screwing into much anyway. (See the part below, where I talk about wall-thickness.)

246845


(Edit: Forgot to add this example pic of a side action.)

I gotta ask the PCF world... has anyone ever had a birdcage fail from the screws giving away? Not saying that they cannot be improved, but "okay" italicized seems to infer that this is a problem. My cages are only 4 years old, and see only moderate use from carrying (maybe once a week) but I have not been particularly gentle with them.

Am I skating on thin ice?
I think others answered this concern pretty well.

Without the dealer button storage and card slot I don’t see the point of buying something that is mostly the same as all my other birdcages. Disappointed
Sorry we couldn't start with the compartmented version first, Mathieu. If you're willing though, we (all of us) could still use your support on the early version.

I had one fail at the screws. It was in the floor of my car, full of chips, and I made a hard stop. The divider/handle broke from the base and there were chips everywhere. That's not from typical use.
I would say that this could be considered pretty typical use. Have you ever really thought about how much force is actually being applied to any object in a car when you take a sharp turn or come to a quick stop? It's not my aim to get into a physics discussion, here, but I would assert that it isn't really all that much force at all. I mean, couldn't you easily apply much more force to those chips and the handle with your body weight or your hand/arm strength than your sudden stop had to offer?

That case should not have broken so easily.

I could see that, there's a lot of mass vs a lever at that...
See above.

I think threaded inserts would make a huge difference..depending on cost
I'll discuss this in-depth with the injection molder after the prototype gets here.

As for the dealer button / card insert in the base- I’m not personally interested but I see why people would be. Any chance there could be a ‘base tray’ add on, that would lock into the pegs in place of the bottom tray of chips, then a regular tray of chips could sit on top of that?
This is an interesting idea, but it would be necessarily big--comparable to the bottom cover--and, therefore, require more expensive tooling. This would have to be another feature that the majority wanted, in order to justify the cost. (See also my comment below about the card rack idea.)

Or even an injection molded chip tray that could sit inverted on the top rack of chips, where the obverse side of the rack had a space for a Dealer Button and a deck, or even a space for the 2-deck set-up.
This is a great idea and I've been thinking about it a lot. Maybe this would satisfy @Mathieu's concerns as well? Again, this would have to be another pre-order thing, a separate project entirely. But, the problem with this particular item is, given the expected low price for each rack--and rightly so--we would need to make sure that we could get pre-orders for at least 1000 units. That's very ballpark. If they were $2 each, I mean, we'd need 100 PCF members * 10 racks apiece? Most members wouldn't need more than a few, I would think.

I believe the compartmentalized base will be engineered later. Come on, folks, this is one guy (a smart one) taking all the design and up-front cost risks for this project. He has to make one initial successful item to sell to the masses before diversifying into niggly little wants and add-ons. You can't start too complicated or else the whole thing fails.
This is a keep it simple stupid type of build for the first iteration and I can't wait :):):)
Thanks, guys, for your patience, understanding, and kind words. There's a lot to do and a lot to learn, but it will be worth it if we can all flip the poker equipment space on its apathetic ear.

So what you're suggesting is that if you want the version with the compartmental base, then just be patient and rather than buying 5 or 6 of the initial version, maybe buy just 1, or none, and then when the version with the compatrmental base comes out, it's at that point you'd can pull the trigger on a quantity buy, right?
If you're holding out for a compartmentalized base, then yes, this is what you should do. It will also likely cost you less to do it this way.
Another option is to buy a few of the initial version to test them out. Then when the version that you really want comes out, sell your previous ones and buy more of the new version. Just like what we do with chips. You might be out on shipping plus any depreciation in value for used product. It all depends on whether you must have something now, or if you can afford to wait.

I probably won't need compartments. Setups come in their own boxes, anyway. A dealer button or two might make its way into the nooks and crannies, or just carried separately - no big deal for me. I'd rather have a solid base than something with a hollow in it, if there are going to be 10kg of chips and racks on top.
@allforcharity hit the nail on the head. I can't stress enough that we need everyone's support on this initial run. I know it's not what every single person wants, and I love the idea of the compartments in the base much more than the next guy. That was one of the chief selling points of the APEX since its inception. But, the majority spoke and we have to go with what the majority wants if we're going to get any of this off the ground.

Not sure how long the time gap will be between the two versions but already a huge leg up on BryBelly so I’ll be buying the first version :)
:tup: I honestly think it won't be long. We're going to reinvest every penny of profit back into the business for quite some time. Tooling for the other sizes and base types is at the top of the list!

...My concern would be if the weld starts to fail...
I appreciate the insight, @Mr. Cheese. I love that you guys are giving this case as much thought as you all are. The ultrasonic weld, though, won't fail. I wish I could impart this knowledge to you quickly and easily. Thermoplastics that are ultrasonically welded together, they become one unit, basically. You'd have to hit the handle with a sledgehammer to get the thing apart, once it's been welded.

But it will probably fit into a shallow fitted slot in the base, so you've got that lateral support keeping the two halves together, no?
Yes, it will help, to a certain extent. The combination of the screws pulling the handle into the pocket and the pocket keeping the bottom of the handle together was part of the idea behind this aspect of the design. It will help. But, man, as I stated in the above comment, good luck getting the handle halves apart anyway. The real strength will be the ultrasonic weld.

Why isn’t the handle just one solid piece?
All thermoplastics are limited to a certain wall thickness. That wall thickness requirements change depending on the properties of the material you're using, whether it's the primary wall or a feature like a rib or a boss, the geometry of the part, how the mold is cooled, the cool-time before setting, etc.. Ignoring or trying to force the material to do something it's not physically capable of is a recipe for disaster. Warping, sagging, and shrinkage can occur as the material cools. The handle is 1/2" thick. Even if it wouldn't twist or bow, it would take a long time to cool each part at that thickness, which means it would increase the cycle time for each part, which adds cost. Also, it would require about twice as much material, which doubles the cost of the handle, at least.

One way to never have to worry about screws would be to make it so the handle has to slide though the bottom piece. If the handle piece had an edge on the bottom of it that would carry the load of the base not screws. Idk just throwing it out there.

View attachment 246658
This is actually how I designed the Black Aurora Modular Poker Case. Live and learn, I guess, but I never liked the screws that were visible on the top of the base, and it really didn't provide that much more strength. The 3D printed version worked fine, but when it comes to injection molding, we would run into the side action problem again, or the geometry of the T would have to be a trickier. I've found that keeping it simple avoids problems. Also, most ways of attaching a T-shaped handle end in visible screws or a thicker base component.

Just spitballing. I understand some physics, but not the lingo.
There may be an issue with tensile strength on injection molded plastic. The handle can hokld a lot of weight in the vertical axis, but trying to change direction is asking a lot. Suddenly, all the weight is carried at the corner between the X and Y axis.

Using 3-4 screws, puts the "change of direction" on the metal (not plastic) screw heads. That weight gets distributed more if he uses a washer.
Yeah, the screws go about 1.25" deep into tight pilot holes of glass-reinforced nylon. Anyone who's ever dabbled in plastics or even woodworking can tell you that when you drill or screw into any solid material, you compromise its structural integrity. That's why I designed the pilots holes into the mold itself. The pilot holes will have to expand only minimally around the shaft of the screws and the threads will bite directly into intact GFN. It'll be strong. Very strong.

So are the feet easily removed if so desired? Or make them an optional add-on item, perhaps?

Protruding feet are not conducive to carriers loaded with chips to sitting on poker table felt/foam, as others have noted.
Fwiw, I think your single largest and best-selling item would be an injected-molded tray (with optional slide-on lid) that sits on top of a full chip rack (capable of holding cards, plaques, dealer buttons, and other miscellaneous items).
I asked the same question with the same concern about a month ago, and was told that they were to be screw on and easily removed.
I think, since we'll only be shipping a couple hundred or so in the beginning, it's safe to take special orders, if you want, @BGinGA. (i.e. "Hold the feet.") :D

About the new card, dealer button, plaque rack, that's something that I'm definitely working my way up to. There are a LOT of products that I'm looking forward to making and bringing to you guys. Last night, I had a dream about a mini Apex. (Yes, I actually dream about poker products, evidently.)

Per last photo looks like removable screwsView attachment 246739
Yup.

From everything posted so far, the feet will be removable, and Mario installs them himself. There will be 4 holes where the feet go after you remove them.

I store my birdcages on a shelf. When I need them, I slide them to the end of the shelf then lift. When putting the chips away, I set the cage near the end of the shelf, and slide it to the back (or as far as it can go before it hits more chips). Unless the rubber is very hard, it will wear down with all the sliding. For this reason, plus the dents in the felt concern, I will be removing the feet as well.
Ah, I see why you would want the feet out of there, with all of the sliding.

As for the dents in the felt, I think this won't be as big a problem as some are thinking it will be. The pics make it look taller, but the feet only protrude out of the bottom by about the height of a poker chip. I think, when set on top of 1/4" foam, covered by felt, the bottom of the cover will take some of the load off of the feet. Placed on foam any greater than 1/4" and I'm sure the feet won't even leave any noticeable depressions at all.

That was part of the design as well. Some expressed a concern that the feet would leave marks in their felt; some were concerned that the feet didn't have enough room to wear, if they were only a couple of millimeters tall; I didn't want the feet to be totally obvious, but I wanted to make sure the bottom of the case was protected from scratches and gunk, too. I thought around 3.5mm would give nearly everyone what they want: discrete feet that protect the bottom of the case, but are short enough to allow the felt to "wrap around" the bottom and the edges.

-------------

I hope I addressed most of everyone's questions. Feel free to hmu if you have anything else. Now that the models are done, I can breathe again, so posting won't be so difficult.

Can't wait to get the prototype in! Hope all is well with everyone.
 
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ekricket

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Wow! A lot of comments, which is great! I'll try to address it all, but first, progress: Ordered all three members of the 3D printed prototype and 25 pegs over the weekend. They'll be printed in black ABS plastic (think LEGO-type density). As of yet, the orders are still showing "placed," which I'm sure means they're not being printed just yet. I expect to have them in about a week, based upon previous experience with 3D printers, but I'm using a new company, so I can't be sure. I'll drop a line to keep you all posted.

Forgive me if I miss anything in the following lines, guys. While I usually carefully weigh each word I use, there's a lot to cover, here.

----------------------------------------------------



Were it not for the constraints put on us by the nature of the injection molding process, this might be a viable idea. The problem is that injection molding requires two plates, primarily, which are pushed together and pulled apart horizontally. This requires that a part's features should be formable in one of two directions, for purposes of this example, we'll call them up or down. For us to add any feature that comes in from the side, would require adding a side action--another piece of aluminum designed to come in from the side--which would make the tooling significantly more complicated and expensive.

Oversimplified Example Tooling for the APEX:

View attachment 246825

View attachment 246826

View attachment 246827

View attachment 246828

You can see how it would be difficult, maybe impossible, to add anything that makes screw holes from the side. It could be done in-house as a secondary operation, but that adds significantly to the labor and assembly time. Also, the thickness of any given part can only be so thick, so a sideways screw wouldn't be screwing into much anyway. (See the part below, where I talk about wall-thickness.)

View attachment 246845

(Edit: Forgot to add this example pic of a side action.)



I think others answered this concern pretty well.



Sorry we couldn't start with the compartmented version first, Mathieu. If you're willing though, we (all of us) could still use your support on the early version.



I would say that this could be considered pretty typical use. Have you ever really thought about how much force is actually being applied to any object in a car when you take a sharp turn or come to a quick stop? It's not my aim to get into a physics discussion, here, but I would assert that it isn't really all that much force at all. I mean, couldn't you easily apply much more force to those chips and the handle with your body weight or your hand/arm strength than your sudden stop had to offer?

That case should not have broken so easily.



See above.



I'll discuss this in-depth with the injection molder after the prototype gets here.



This is an interesting idea, but it would be necessarily big--comparable to the bottom cover--and, therefore, require more expensive tooling. This would have to be another feature that the majority wanted, in order to justify the cost. (See also my comment below about the card rack idea.)



This is a great idea and I've been thinking about it a lot. Maybe this would satisfy @Mathieu's concerns as well? Again, this would have to be another pre-order thing, a separate project entirely. But, the problem with this particular item is, given the expected low price for each rack--and rightly so--we would need to make sure that we could get pre-orders for at least 1000 units. That's very ballpark. If they were $2 each, I mean, we'd need 100 PCF members * 10 racks apiece? Most members wouldn't need more than a few, I would think.







Thanks, guys, for your patience, understanding, and kind words. There's a lot to do and a lot to learn, but it will be worth it if we can all flip the poker equipment space on its apathetic ear.




@allforcharity hit the nail on the head. I can't stress enough that we need everyone's support on this initial run. I know it's not what every single person wants, and I love the idea of the compartments in the base much more than the next guy. That was one of the chief selling points of the APEX since its inception. But, the majority spoke and we have to go with what the majority wants if we're going to get any of this off the ground.



:tup: I honestly think it won't be long. We're going to reinvest every penny of profit back into the business for quite some time. Tooling for the other sizes and base types is at the top of the list!



I appreciate the insight, @Mr. Cheese. I love that you guys are giving this case as much thought as you all are. The ultrasonic weld, though, won't fail. I wish I could impart this knowledge to you quickly and easily. Thermoplastics that are ultrasonically welded together, they become one unit, basically. You'd have to hit the handle with a sledgehammer to get the thing apart, once it's been welded.



Yes, it will help, to a certain extent. The combination of the screws pulling the handle into the pocket and the pocket keeping the bottom of the handle together was part of the idea behind this aspect of the design. It will help. But, man, as I stated in the above comment, good luck getting the handle halves apart anyway. The real strength will be the ultrasonic weld.



All thermoplastics are limited to a certain wall thickness. That wall thickness requirements change depending on the properties of the material you're using, whether it's the primary wall or a feature like a rib or a boss, the geometry of the part, how the mold is cooled, the cool-time before setting, etc.. Ignoring or trying to force the material to do something it's not physically capable of is a recipe for disaster. Warping, sagging, and shrinkage can occur as the material cools. The handle is 1/2" thick. Even if it wouldn't twist or bow, it would take a long time to cool each part at that thickness, which means it would increase the cycle time for each part, which adds cost. Also, it would require about twice as much material, which doubles the cost of the handle, at least.



This is actually how I designed the Black Aurora Modular Poker Case. Live and learn, I guess, but I never liked the screws that were visible on the top of the base, and it really didn't provide that much more strength. The 3D printed version worked fine, but when it comes to injection molding, we would run into the side action problem again, or the geometry of the T would have to be a trickier. I've found that keeping it simple avoids problems. Also, most ways of attaching a T-shaped handle end in visible screws or a thicker base component.



Yeah, the screws go about 1.25" deep into tight pilot holes of glass-reinforced nylon. Anyone who's ever dabbled in plastics or even woodworking can tell you that when you drill or screw into any solid material, you compromise its structural integrity. That's why I designed the pilots holes into the mold itself. The pilot holes will have to expand only minimally around the shaft of the screws and the threads will bite directly into intact GFN. It'll be strong. Very strong.






I think, since we'll only be shipping a couple hundred or so in the beginning, it's safe to take special orders, if you want, @BGinGA. (i.e. "Hold the feet.") :D

About the new card, dealer button, plaque rack, that's something that I'm definitely working my way up to. There are a LOT of products that I'm looking forward to making and bringing to you guys. Last night, I had a dream about a mini Apex. (Yes, I actually dream about poker products, evidently.)



Yup.



Ah, I see why you would want the feet out of there, with all of the sliding.

As for the dents in the felt, I think this won't be as big a problem as some are thinking it will be. The pics make it look taller, but the feet only protrude out of the bottom by about the height of a poker chip. I think, when set on top of 1/4" foam, covered by felt, the bottom of the cover will take some of the load off of the feet. Placed on foam any greater than 1/4" and I'm sure the feet won't even leave any noticeable depressions at all.

That was part of the design as well. Some expressed a concern that the feet would leave marks in their felt; some were concerned that the feet didn't have enough room to wear, if they were only a couple of millimeters tall; I didn't want the feet to be totally obvious, but I wanted to make sure the bottom of the case was protected from scratches and gunk, too. I thought around 3.5mm would give nearly everyone what they want: discrete feet that protect the bottom of the case, but are short enough to allow the felt to "wrap around" the bottom and the edges.

-------------

I hope I addressed most of everyone's questions. Feel free to hmu if you have anything else. Now that the models are done, I can breathe again, so posting won't be so difficult.

Can't wait to get the prototype in! Hope all is well with everyone.
No thermoplastic, why isn’t the handle just one solid piece of lucite or Delrin or whatever that’s about a half inch Thick?
 

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@ekricket

Lucite is just a brand name for acrylic. Perspex, Plexiglas, it's all PMMA, poly(methyl methacrylate). That material in particular wouldn't be particularly strong, especially when compared to GFN, which is known under Zytel, it's Dupont brand name, most times. But, I see what you're saying. I wanted to keep the parts consistent in material usage and, perhaps more importantly, look/feel/texture/color. Any deviation in materials between the parts would be noticeable.

Delrin, quite honestly, I'd never considered, and I don't have any experience with it. I'll look into it in a moment.

Also, another major concern would be ease of manufacture. If it were to be a solid piece, it would likely have to be machined from a single block, which would entail another manufacture method (CNC), and take much more time. With injection molding, we can turn out dozens, even hundreds, of handles in a workday, and, if we're going to use injection molding at all--and be bound by its design restrictions--it may as well be GFN. It always comes back to injection molding.

(Edit)

Ah! "POM." I have heard of it. Never heard the DuPont name though. I think the problem with POM would be its thermal expansion. Expands in the heat and shrinks in the cold. GFN is less affected by external temperatures.
 
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BGinGA

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As for the dents in the felt, I think this won't be as big a problem as some are thinking it will be. The pics make it look taller, but the feet only protrude out of the bottom by about the height of a poker chip. I think, when set on top of 1/4" foam, covered by felt, the bottom of the cover will take some of the load off of the feet. Placed on foam any greater than 1/4" and I'm sure the feet won't even leave any noticeable depressions at all.
I can guarantee depressions, based on real-world experience with loaded chip case weight on a variety of table surfaces. Thicker foam tends to be softer, and will dent worse than thinner foam. And depending on the actual foam material in use, the depressions can be permanent -- the problem is real. Even recessed circles (where feet are removed) may be an issue, in reverse (non-uniform depression from the chip case bottom surface). Unlike a hard floor surface, foam typically doesn't distribute the weight evenly.
 

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I wouldn't let a full chip carrier sit on the felt for any real length of time. They store on a shelf or another hard surface close by. Even if I did bring it to the table, it would just be to unload, and that would be done in less than half a minute. I think the longest a full chip carrier would sit on a table would be if I was fussing to take some sort of pr0n picture of everything.
 

RowdyRawhide

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I wouldn't let a full chip carrier sit on the felt for any real length of time. They store on a shelf or another hard surface close by. Even if I did bring it to the table, it would just be to unload, and that would be done in less than half a minute. I think the longest a full chip carrier would sit on a table would be if I was fussing to take some sort of pr0n picture of everything.
There are documented cases of people leaving aluminum cases on tables for a couple of days and permanently damaging their felt from the little "feet" on the bottom.

It would be an unintentional act in most cases.

The pads on the bottom of the cases really are a solution looking for a problem IMO
 
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Would help, but not eliminate the problem. Filling the holes is the only real fix (or covering the entire bottom surface with a hard material)..
I guess I’d be surprised if a permanent indent was left given the hole diameter, rigidity of packing tape, and weight/surface area of the cage unless it’s left on there with a full rack for a long time but who knows... guess I’ll have to drill some holes in one of my cages tomorrow :)

246972
 

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I suggest that you just build the thing the best way you can think of, and put it out as a finished product.

To my mind, you have really engineered and over- engineered this thing, and we are lucky to have it, as an alternative to the garbage birdcages i have seen.

You cant please everyone. Don't let all the armchair engineers and nitpickers side track you.

Don't give them updates. Go dark and return with a pre-order.

"Build it and they will come".
 

BGinGA

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I guess I’d be surprised if a permanent indent was left given the hole diameter
Depends on how large the hole is. If screw-size, then probably no issue. If foot-size, then it's big enough to cause problems. But a recessed hole for the foot means a more-robust and less easily damaged foot. A surface-mount foot is more easily torn off.
 

Poker Zombie

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While the feet could leave dents, I doubt the holes increase the risk much. Some, yes - it's all about PSI (or whatever the metric term is for Pounds per Square Inch). More space to distribute the weight is better, but the holes aren't going to increase it much. Maybe five percent? I might have greater concerns playing a huge-stack limit game.

I do see the feet adding cost to the project - a cost for a feature many of us will simply remove.

I have had no issues with my current birdcages. I would still happily support a site vendor though, provided the price-point is about the same. But if the costs climb up, my interest wanes until the finished product comes out and reviews come in that convince me it is worth the extra cost.
 

WedgeRock

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Not sure where all this "permanent damage" to foam talk comes from, but I inadvertantly leaned one of my tables against a hard surface for a week or two and put a terrible indent in the Volara. It sprung back after a few days and is all but gone now.

I can't imagine introducing feet for a short period of time is going to affect the foam in any significant way. Would I prefer the birdcage have a flat bottom? Sure. Would I avoid a purchase simply because of feet? No.
 
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Poker Zombie

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Not sure where all this "permanent damage" to foam talk comes from, but I inadvertantly leaned one of my tables against a hard surface for a week of two and put a terrible indent in the Volara. It sprung back after a few days and is all but gone now.

I can't imagine introducing feet for a short period of time is going to affect the foam in any significant way. Would I prefer the birdcage have a flat bottom? Sure. Would I avoid a purchase simply because of feet? No.
I have had permanent damage to a moleskin playing surface from a beer bottle placed on the surface. Granted, this is a less common material so it may not matter. However, the foam thing is real.

I break down my table after each event. This means that the table remains standing for 12 hours tops. 12 hours of a rail sitting on the foam. Can you guess where the rail sits?
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Each wrinkle is from a different night. It doesn't matter, because it's basically hidden under the rail, but the rail is both bigger in size (square inches) and weighs less than 1000 chips.

If someone set down a birdcage and left it there between games (as a display in the man-cave for a non-poker night) the feet would undoubtedly destroy the surface.
 

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When I see people using birdcages, the put the cage on some cabinet. Or put cage on table momentarily. Open it. Pull racks out. Put racks on table. Pull chips out. Put racks away. Play game. Reversse.

Who the F is storing their full racks on poker tables? Thats the poker version of licking a frozen metal pole.

This is what we have to worry about?
 

72o

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I sat one rack full of chips on top of volara for under 10 minutes. The indent (the full shape of the rack) was real bad and scared the shit out of me. It lasted about an hour or so while I tried everything in my power to get the wrinkle out. I will not leave anything on my table like that anymore. Nothing.

That being said, with or without feet, I don’t plan on sitting a birdcage on the felt at all so it’s a non issue for me.
 

ekricket

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I sat one rack full of chips on top of volara for under 10 minutes. The indent (the full shape of the rack) was real bad and scared the shit out of me. It lasted about an hour or so while I tried everything in my power to get the wrinkle out.....
I’m intrigued, wondering what you tried.
 
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