Anyone tried GTO Wizard? (1 Viewer)

[Legend5555]

I agree that studying GTO has a lot of educational value. I just think that in application, it has weaknesses along the lines of, say, Google Maps.

It's excellent for giving you a generally optimal route from point A to point B, in theory. But you need to have the sense to deviate—sometimes sharply—when it's obvious that the suggested route won't work (e.g., tree in the road, players who never bluff the river). And those points of deviation are all over the place in poker because you're constantly getting information about your opponents.

The funny thing about the example we were discussing is that it's about an anonymized player pool, not individual known players. This is the type of spot where GTO should really shine, since you have no exploitable information, but alas, it does not. River spots should be among the simplest to consider for a GTO approach, and yet that's where it's failing the most clearly. I have to wonder if the approach the software is suggesting is not truly GTO.

It's easy to brush this off as "Players on this site almost never bluff the river, so this doesn't really work here," but that shouldn't matter for a GTO approach. GTO may leave some money on the table compared to an exploitative approach, but it shouldn't have you getting constantly value-owned on the river.

It doesn't matter to GTO long term. If opponents aren't value betting thin enough on the river and you are losing money there by calling too often, then you are making it up elsewhere in the overall strategy. Importantly, GTO is not a profit maximizing strategy, it's an unexploitable strategy. It will never do worse than break even if you do it perfectly (which no human can), but it won't always make you the most money. And the bankroll needed to execute it perfectly given where you might lose value in some hands is probably larger than most players generally have.

Learning it is a good base, but against people that aren't going to counter you or have obvious flaws (player pools in micro stakes fast fold), you are free to adjust to increase profitability. But as I said, using it for the more common spots like preflop ranges, cbeting frequencies, board textures, and optimal bluffing hands, it has a lot of value.

 

[luffykiller]

Did you bought the GTO wizard ? Do you think it is worth the money?
I looked at their ranges, is impossible to apply them in real game as so many 20% or under frequency. But the most interesting when I play vs AI, they bluff like insane. A lot of the bluffs they pull out human will never do in real game.

 

[Legend5555]

Did you bought the GTO wizard ? Do you think it is worth the money?
I looked at their ranges, is impossible to apply them in real game as so many 20% or under frequency. But the most interesting when I play vs AI, they bluff like insane. A lot of the bluffs they pull out human will never do in real game.

The point of studying GTO isn't to try and emulate it perfectly. It's to learn better strategies to employ in certain situations. No one is memorizing all these spots and frequencies. What they do is generalize some of these things. And the only people that really need to be randomizing their decisions based on the GTO frequencies are people playing against others that are well versed in GTO.

As far as bluffing, yes GTO bluffs a lot. But that's a result of it trying to keep it's range balanced. The whole point of GTO is that no matter what others do against you, they can't exploit you. So it needs to find lots of "crazy" bluffs in many spots to remain unexploitable. But that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't exploit players that have obvious spots to exploit. The most important takeaway from the GTO bluffs is WHY is it choosing the hands it does to bluff with. Learning why it chooses certain hands to bluff will help you identify better spots to bluff in general.

 

[inthehiggs]

Any updates from anyone still using GTO Wizard? Seen several ads for it, but not a lot out on the internet about it.

 

[ninedeuce]

I'm still using it (bought the annual sub in Sep), and happy with it.

The real differentiator betw this and let's say a standard solver like PIO or GTOPlus is the wealth of new features being added, along with continually adding solves for different stack sizes. E.g., an issue I had last fall was that the solves were geared towards 100BB stacks, but they've added a lot of 200BB solves which are much more applicable to me.

They also added a cool range builder feature, where you specify a spot, and then construct an appropriate range. E.g., the range for a CO RFI, or a SB 3B vs a BTN open, etc.

That said, it's a lot of money. I'm paying $828 for a year. But I netted $11k in my games for 2021. Can't say exactly how much, if any, of that is attributable to GTOWizard. I'll definitely re-evaluate this Sep when my sub is up.

Also, I mentioned that the differentiator for GTOWiz is the wealth of features and speed of new feature development. That may be a drawback to some folks who just want to use a solver and focus on individual spots. I think the best straight solver value is GTOPlus for $75. But it's really a different class of product.