Anyone doing anything but jamming here? (1 Viewer)

[boltonguy]

10nl blitz on acr. LJ rfi 3bb, co calls, bn calls, sb calls. Hero in BB jams KK.
Anyone doing anything else here?

Snowie wants to go 6x. Big difference in EV between pot (33.06 BB) and a jam (5.24 BB).
I figure only 1 guy here (UTG) likely to have AA and that's a statistically smaller part of his range than AK/AQ/AJ and I'd be OK to take it down right now. If anyone calls with QQ- I am getting it all in ahead which is +EV right? I dont want to go 6x get one or more callers and have to play a bloated pot OOP. If I get it all in now V's positional advantage is gone.
Thoughts?

 

[boltonguy]

And BTW this isnt a suck-out thread. Looking for feedback on this play. I did win this pot. Will provide action later as i don't think the results are important to the discussion.

 

[springbox]

I think the main issue is that you *do* want a call here, and with an all-in sizing you're not going to get any. The only player you'd expect to have QQ-AA here is the LJ given the lack of a 3-bet from other players, and QQ might even consider folding here (well, maybe not at this stack depth idk). KK has so much equity, you don't want people to fold when you raise it. We want a big raise to isolate to 1~2 players, we still want action even if it's OOP. I'm never jamming here with only 12BB in the middle.

To add, given that only AA-QQ can realistically call this shove (and again QQ may fold) it's not hard to see why the EV is low. AA you're a dog, KK you chop, QQ you beat, and the rest is fold equity. But AA will call 100% of the time and QQ will only call sometimes. That means you're going to be behind more often when you get called. So your EV when called will actually be negative. KK is a hand we want to make money on calling equity, not fold equity. You need a bigger pot or a smaller raise to entice worse hands into calling, or more in the pot to make your fold equity more valuable.

 

[Darson]

The real question is, if you raise say 30BB and villain jams on you, can you find a fold?

 

[MrCatPants]

I see why Snowie would want a big raise - only UTG potentially has hands ahead of you and is most likely to have the Ax hands that have some degree of equity against you. You want to get to heads up. What can call a jam? AA/AK/other KK/maybe QQ? In a live game I'd probably raise this to $20.

 

[JMC9389]

I don't like a shove here. You're not getting called by worse with 4 callers to a 3BB raise. I three bet to 15 BB's and see who else wants to come along. If I get 4 bet after that, villain dependent I either groan shove or groan fold.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I would only jam here situationally, e.g., when I expect it to look like a genuine steam-raise and players are likely to call it light.

Unless there's a dynamic like that at play, this is just setting yourself up to either fold everyone out or get called by AA a disproportionate amount of the time.

 

[Marius L]

Didn't read your post, but after seing the picture and thread title I say yes, I do pretty much anything but jam there.

I don't think I would even consider jamming to be honest. I'd probably 4bet to 15-20xbb or so.

Problem with this jam is that you'd often fold out the hands that you crush and you don't get to realize any of that equity. Sure you might get called by QQs, JJs or AK once in a while (and AA obviously), but I'd much rather play the hand postflop and get multiple more streets of value from a TPTK type of hand calling you, or an overpair.

 

[natumes]

I'm more likely to go 25BB in this spot. I want to extract maximum value from my premium hands, and jamming here is just most likely to get all worse hands to fold.

 

[Eriks]

Not sure if this is a trick question but I don’t see any reason to jam

 

[BukNaked36]

Jamming doesn't make sense for the reasons stated above.

You want to raise to an amount that results in 1 or 2 callers. So that's probably 20 - 25 range.

 

[DontKnowWhen]

Short answer: Yes I would do anything but jam.

You have the second best starting hand. You want to play for stacks not a smallish 12BB pot.
By jamming you are laying the pot 11.5 to 1 odds. Not ideal. Although unlikely for anyone to hold aces, when called you are essentially toast and have just tossed off your stack.

Agree with the others, I would reraise 3X+dead money for about 18-20BB. If called, that would leave you an SPR of 2.2ish which is perfect to get stacks in by the river with a high equity hand.

 

[kmccormick100]

Yeah, I'm never ever shoving here except maybe in a tournament where 12bb is a nice add on to the stack to just take it down, leaving way to much value out there. Over a raise and 3 calls I'm usually 5-6x'ing the raise, so figure making it 15-20bb to go and probably never folding to a 5bet jam unless it's against the nittiest of players at <100bb effective.

 

[boltonguy]

I can understand that a jam here is possibly leaving money on the table but I think even a 6x raise is going to see this hand going 3+ ways with Hero OOP in a bloated pot. As we move clockwise from LJ around the table ranges get weaker but I think PPs and SCs will be prevalent and as one earlier position player calls, more high implied odds hands will call, feeling “priced in.” I think raising to 20bb and getting multiple callers it is going to be tricky to play postflop on many runouts. I also think the jam looks fishier, trying to spin up FE to take down all the dead money with ATC. I think this only works from the BB given the numbers of callers. With this many players in the hand I think a jam will get at least one caller.

As it went, LJ called the jam with JJ. All other players folded and Hero held.

 

[Jimulacrum]

 

[glynn]

With this many players in the hand I think a jam will get at least one caller.

lmfao they are each in for 3bb, and three of them passively. What are you talking about.

 

[springbox]

Well, if you think 6x is too small go to 8x, or 10x, or even 15x. Surely there's a size where you don't get multiple callers. And it may be true that it's trickier to play post flop, but that's true of every hand. Jamming simplifies your decision making sure, but you can still leave value on the table doing it.

Anyways, fantastic to get a call from a JJ. The jam works if you're confident someone will make a crazy loose call like that (which may be true at 10NL blitz), but assuming your opponents have more reasonable pre-flop play they really shouldn't call here. And even if they're calling JJ-AA to a jam, we still also want to get calls from Ax suited, Kx, suited, lower pocket pairs, etc.

 

[boltonguy]

If I make it 18bb JJ is calling and then 88 and 67s are calling behind as they are priced in. Maybe my logic is twisted by the Blitz-specific play.

 

[springbox]

If I make it 18bb JJ is calling and then 88 and 67s are calling behind as they are priced in. Maybe my logic is twisted by the Blitz-specific play.

I mean, I usually go 4x for an OOP 3b and then +1 for each caller so I'd be at 7x for 21bb. But again, if you think that's too small you have everywhere from 6x to your actual bet of 46x. If it's 30bb do you still think 67s is going to call behind?

Actually mathing it out (poorly) because I'm bored...

45bb in the pot (18+18+9), 15 to call, so 3 to 1 pot odds. They need to win 25% of the time for that call to be good, but 67s only has ~20% equity against two overpairs. 88 is even worse at about 15% equity. Even if JJ 67s and 88 all call, KK is a 54~55% favorite, which is crazy good for you in a 4 way pot. Obviously you lose some equity being OOP, but you are still hugely favored when called. I get not wanting to play big pots OOP, but if there's a hand for it it's AA or KK.

 

[joeyshin]

i like to limp...then fold on turn when Ace hits

 

[Legend5555]

I probably make it 20bb then call an all in. Jamming just gets too many hands you want in there to fold.

 

[boltonguy]

@springbox if there was 1 or 2 villains I would definitely be going 6x here but with 4 villains I figured at least one would call a jam and that would be easier than going 4+ way oop wondering who hit their set. Appreciate the feedback. In blitz it is anomalous to see so many callers pre- maybe this is much more common in a low stakes cash game live and should be played differently in that venue.

 

[boltonguy]

Ok question may have been better phrased "If you're pretty sure youre getting at least one worse caller are you doing anything but jamming here?"
Would have been a pretty hideous runount oop (flush comes in and 77/99/TT make sets) vs 3 or 4 players so I'm happy with the decision to jam.

 

[livia256]

10nl blitz on acr. LJ rfi 3bb, co calls, bn calls, sb calls. Hero in BB jams KK.
Anyone doing anything else here?

View attachment 1072803

Snowie wants to go 6x. Big difference in EV between pot (33.06 BB) and a jam (5.24 BB).
I figure only 1 guy here (UTG) likely to have AA and that's a statistically smaller part of his range than AK/AQ/AJ and I'd be OK to take it down right now. If anyone calls with QQ- I am getting it all in ahead which is +EV right? I dont want to go 6x get one or more callers and have to play a bloated pot OOP. If I get it all in now V's positional advantage is gone.
Thoughts?

View attachment 1072822

View attachment 1072823

Without any specific reads on the players I would want to 3bet here to around pot size and hope to get 1-2 callers. If I get 4bet jammed on then would most likely have to find a call. You're at the top of your range here and you would want players to call with worse hands. By jamming there preflop you would get a folds from almost all of the hands you're ahead of and miss out on a ton of value.

The only reason I would think to jam here would be as an exploit for an extremely soft game with massive calling stations that would call off with any pair or Ax hand preflop.

 

[DrStrange]

I think we are being pranked. A bit early for an April Fool's joke, but props for the project.