Another (Shorter) $500NL Hand from Today (06/19)

chipsncoffee

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Hey everyone! Once again, I'm coming to you for your thoughts and feedback on a hand from this morning's session. This one is much shorter, so there won't be multiple streets to evaluate, but I'd like to hear your thoughts nonetheless.

So, as stated, we're playing on a 6-max $500NLHE table, and there is definitely some action. We're on hand #81, and Villain was here when Hero sat down, so we have seen all of his action. Villain is playing a SUPER LAG game. Fortunately, Hero got seated directly to Villain's left. For this hand, Hero is in the SB and Villain is OTB, and it gets folded around to him. Effective stacks are $890.

Villain has opened just over 85% of the time when OTB, so his range here is obviously huge. His 3-bet percentage is also at ~40%, so he's definitely trying to run the table.

Villain opens for $12.50 and Hero has :ah::kh:. Hero raises to $45, BB folds, and Villain 4-bets to $120. There is $170 in the pot at this point, so Hero is getting ~2.3:1 on just a call.

Action on Hero. How do we proceed?
 

Beakertwang

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JustinInMN

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So with $890 effective calling would leave about a 3:1 SPR. I think that's the best play, you should try and flop a pair or a draw and evaluate from there. I think this even plays into a LAG strategy too. You will be able to collect the max when you hit, but you won't be shoving into a 4-bet range that probably contains some pretty nutty hands too.

I think I like the flat, we are getting a good price and we will like about 40% of flops.
 

JustinInMN

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My concerns about a 5-bet jam is that even against LAG people, they now have a chance to fold out AJ or AQ if those hands are in this LAG's 4-bet range. We will get this villan's stack from these hands if we flop an ace most of the time. If hero flats, we'll flop TPTK about a 30% of the time, a flush draw another 11% of the time or so, plus we'll flop two overs with a broadway gutter a fair bit of the time too. We will flop air most of the time, but even that might be to our advantage if villain happens to have AA or KK.
 

Beakertwang

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I suppose I would need to know what the villain typically does when his 3-bet is met with aggression. Does he call or rereaise with strong hands? Does he fold or call with marginal hands? If you reraise him here, will he go with any two cards?
 

JustinInMN

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I think what you want to do here is try to flop a Pair plus flush draw. That would be how I would try to play it.

Well yes flopping well is always a good plan. But I think it's better to just try and figure out how many good flops there are and how playable they are against villain's actions than to hope to flop a specific holding.
 

judgeanjury

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Once again speaking as a tournament player I would 4 bet. If he shoves you still get to make a decision. If he calls you are in the driver's seat and can probably figure out his range better than just calling.

Enjoying the strategy talk!
 

Highli99

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Well yes flopping well is always a good plan. But I think it's better to just try and figure out how many good flops there are and how playable they are against villain's actions than to hope to flop a specific holding.

I’m sorry - I was making a bit of a joke. There are some fantastic advice givers in this sub forum. I enjoy following along although rarely chime in with actual advice. I do find that some of these discussions are more interesting than others. A question about how to play AK suited against a LAG preflop is less compelling a discussion than more borderline discussions, or at lease situations where folding is also an appropriate consideration.

in this case I think we can agree if you like variance, jam. If you want less variance call. Otherwise we are probably just discussing a bad beat or suck out win.
 

chipsncoffee

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I suppose I would need to know what the villain typically does when his 3-bet is met with aggression. Does he call or rereaise with strong hands? Does he fold or call with marginal hands? If you reraise him here, will he go with any two cards?

Villain does NOT like being played back at. He will continue with most hands here.
 

chipsncoffee

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One more important thing to note is that this Villain is not giving up with AQ, AJ, ATs, ANY pocket pair, KQ, and potentially KJ. I saw him do something similar in an earlier hand with K9s.
 

DrStrange

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Hero is OOP and playing medium depth. I would like to assume villain knows what he is doing. In that I mean villain is playing with perspective and pays attention.

Along that line, I have to start out wondering what Hero's table image is. Has there been a history of back and forth with Hero vs villain? Is this the first time for Hero to get feisty?

I ask this because a TAGfish sort of table image means Hero's hand is telegraphed pretty specifically. 5-bet often means top 1 or 2% hand, i.e. QQ+, AKs when Hero isn't active maybe as restrictive as KK+. Does hero want his range to be so tightly defined? We have to think villain isn't going to show up with anything close to any two cards if he calls. And Hero is likely to have some significant fold equity.

How does Hero feel about playing this sort of hand OOP vs a skilled LAG? 81 hands are not so many, but does hero have a feel for the relative skill differences?

The less skilled the villain, the wider the skill difference, the more I would be inclined to flat and see what happens. But my default plan is a standard raise. The button raise hardly counts as a range defining raise. Hero's "3-bet" should be much wider. And so the 4-bet might not mean so much.

I raise to $350. That is a $230 raise into a $410 pot, barely half pot. This leaves hero with $540 and a prospective preflop pot of $640. Hero jams all flops, just like he would with AA and an SPR less than one. Hero jams if villain 6-bets, the only disaster hand is AA in villain's hand.

Most likely, hero is getting the $170. Villain has to know Hero's preflop action is pot commitment with an ultra strong hand. Expect variance.

You can't be a LAG once Hero is all-in -=- DrStrange
 

JustinInMN

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I’m am raising here for sure!!!!

Being out of position is a huge disadvantage and with his wide range he could hit a pair on any flop potentially while Hero is more likely to miss and have to act first.

I like @ChaosRock sizing of $300 here.

I think the action is hero is in position and facing a four bet to 125 after 3 betting to 45.

One more important thing to note is that this Villain is not giving up with AQ, AJ, ATs, ANY pocket pair, KQ, and potentially KJ. I saw him do something similar in an earlier hand with K9s.

This information on history makes the decision a lot closer than I previously though. I would be tempted to a jam instead of a flat. Flatting might still have some merit if villian is going to fold a hunk of this range to a 5-bet jam, in which case you might try and get his stack by flopping a pair and having him blast as a huge dog. There is risk villian would bluff at you in dry boards too, but if you really have the read he's bluff heavy in those sorts of spots, defending with AK may be reasonable.

Against a villian this wide, you are really hoping to get the money in, if you can do it pre, go for it. If not, spread it out over a couple streets and take the escape if anything obviously bad happens.
 

chipsncoffee

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Hero is OOP and playing medium depth. I would like to assume villain knows what he is doing. In that I mean villain is playing with perspective and pays attention.

Along that line, I have to start out wondering what Hero's table image is. Has there been a history of back and forth with Hero vs villain? Is this the first time for Hero to get feisty?

I ask this because a TAGfish sort of table image means Hero's hand is telegraphed pretty specifically. 5-bet often means top 1 or 2% hand, i.e. QQ+, AKs when Hero isn't active maybe as restrictive as KK+. Does hero want his range to be so tightly defined? We have to think villain isn't going to show up with anything close to any two cards if he calls. And Hero is likely to have some significant fold equity.

How does Hero feel about playing this sort of hand OOP vs a skilled LAG? 81 hands are not so many, but does hero have a feel for the relative skill differences?

The less skilled the villain, the wider the skill difference, the more I would be inclined to flat and see what happens. But my default plan is a standard raise. The button raise hardly counts as a range defining raise. Hero's "3-bet" should be much wider. And so the 4-bet might not mean so much.

I raise to $350. That is a $230 raise into a $410 pot, barely half pot. This leaves hero with $540 and a prospective preflop pot of $640. Hero jams all flops, just like he would with AA and an SPR less than one. Hero jams if villain 6-bets, the only disaster hand is AA in villain's hand.

Most likely, hero is getting the $170. Villain has to know Hero's preflop action is pot commitment with an ultra strong hand. Expect variance.

You can't be a LAG once Hero is all-in -=- DrStrange

All great questions and points!

Hero does/should have an active table image. As it stands, we have a VPIP of ~32, and we've shown down some winning hands like :7c::8c: (in position) that have been 3-bet by a separate Villain PF. This is also not the first time that Hero has played back hard at others, recognizing large 3-bet percentages from both SB and BB positions and making some loose 4-bets to take the pot preflop.

There were three major thoughts that led me to my decision:

1. We can certainly get called by worse from this Villain.
2. Personally, I think that another raise looks weaker than a flat call.
3. If Hero calls and completely misses, we can't continue.
 

chipsncoffee

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Okay, so here's how the rest of this story goes.

Villain has 4-bet to $120. Hero shoves for ~$845, Villain snap calls and we see that he has :kd::kc:. Oops. Hero is a 2:1 underdog.

The board runs out :6h::7s::7h::8d::8h: giving Hero the A-high flush and a pot of almost $1800.

Here was my thought process before shoving, and maybe I'm just leveling myself here, but I thought that, if I shoved, it may look more like I'm trying to bully Villain with a 7x raise and take the pot right here and that he'll call off with a worse hand. As stated earlier, he's certainly capable.

All-in-all, I think that, had I just called the bet of $120, that it's all getting in on the flop, so it would've ended up playing itself. The reason that I really wanted to post about this hand is because, based on Villain's statistics, I want to hear what you think and if are we making the right move here. Sure, this is definitely bad luck for Villain, but a few of you said it: expect variance.

Villain did actually reload and I was able to capitalize on a lot of his mistakes for the couple of hours before he left completely broke.
 

JustinInMN

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Well pretty good result at least. And getting in against KK is not nearly as bad as against AA, and if the read is sound you could have been called by worse, this isn't so bad.

If you had flatted pre you would have bet/called a shove on the flop anyway. So with all the results out, I don't think the preflop decision really mattered a lot. One way or another, the money was going in given the hands and the runout.
 

Frogzilla

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Maybe I’m hanging around nits, but that raise-4b line seems so nutted. Flatting the 3-bet deep in position is juicy for so much of the range that what’s raised is pretty damn good. Tough spot for AKs. I honestly randomize here probably 2:1 flat:call because while AKs is strong enough to 5b, I just hate 5b against the kind of 4b range I suspect we’reup against
 

chipsncoffee

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Maybe I’m hanging around nits, but that raise-4b line seems so nutted. Flatting the 3-bet deep in position is juicy for so much of the range that what’s raised is pretty damn good. Tough spot for AKs. I honestly randomize here probably 2:1 flat:call because while AKs is strong enough to 5b, I just hate 5b against the kind of 4b range I suspect we’reup against

I honestly feel like the right decision was made based on the information that I had and it just wound up being one of those spots where the nutball ended up with a hand.

Variance is rough. I had to step away just now because I just caught the other side of it hard. :(

Luckily, I’m managing my bankroll well, so, while I’m not playing anymore tonight, tomorrow I’ll do more studying and keep on keepin’ on.
 

Mike Wells

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Without background info, I mix all three plays: flat < raise < jam
When you said he 3-bets 40%, I started to drool. Can I get in this game?
Knowing that, I throw flatting out the window. Despite the fact he happened to wake up with a monster, you should be crushing his range. And when you said he's a bit of a station, I'm almost always jamming.
 

chipsncoffee

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Again, I want to thank everyone for their input. It means a lot that people are willing to take time out of their day to respond to something that is beneficial to me. I'm trying everything I possibly can to be a good student of this game because it is something that I sincerely love, so, again, thank you all very much. :)
 
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