Another rule question? (1 Viewer)

doakwolf

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Scenario:

Two players heads up in a live casino tourney.

At the river player A bets and player B mumbles something unknown under his breath and then places cards face up on the table without moving any chips in. No one knows whether he called or mucked face-up.

Dealer fails to clarify before player A shows winning hand.

Dealer moves pot towards player A. Moments later player B passes player A the "call amount" from the bet on the river.

Question: Could player B have claimed to have mucked and not actually handed over those remaining chips?

In this actual situation, the dealer was asked by player C (out of the hand) what happened and the dealer confirmed he didn't know if it was a call or a muck.

Obviously poor dealing but I'm curious to know the official rule here?
 

10centguitar

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Sounds like a bad dealer lol.

Player B should not pass the chips.

The dealer did not ask for the call amount before the pot was pushed and no one tried to say that player B made a verbal call.

The only discernible action by player B was a face up muck.

However if player B tells the dealer that he did in fact say call, then things could be straightened out.

If that happened and I was dealing, I would collect the chips and give them to player A if the amount was still there and several witnesses knew how much it was.

If there was any confusion or arguments over the matter when player B tried to say he called and tries to pass chips, I would call the floor and ask them what should be done. (the floor would say pass the chips if the amount was known or still on the table.)
 

BGinGA

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In many instances, merely tabling your cards face-up in a tournament will result in the hand being considered dead (depending upon the specific tournament rules being used).
 

doakwolf

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If there was any confusion or arguments over the matter when player B tried to say he called and tries to pass chips, I would call the floor and ask them what should be done. (the floor would say pass the chips if the amount was known or still on the table.)

And if player B turned over the winning hand but it was still unknown if he had said "call" and hadn't placed his chips into the middle?
 

doakwolf

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I guess (also) player A should not have shown his cards until player B's chips were in the middle/pot.

I'll keep this in mind for future and if I find myself in player A's position, I'll be holding my cards tight until all chips have been moved into the middle.
 

CHP TD

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(in most Australian casinos) this is a tabled hand. face up is tabled The dealer cant muck a tabled hand. even if you muck them face up it is still a tabled hand.

and

dealer dropped the ball. if no one was sure of the action then the action has not happened.

and lastly this is a pit boss issue - where was he?

but the pushing the pot is pretty much making it over.

sad thing is it was a crap player playing an angle with a crap dealer and a crap pit boss omg... the list goers on.......

if i was the guy still to act, id bet not show....
 

Bloody Marvelous

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I commend Player B for passing the call amount to Player A, since apparently he meant to call the amount.

If it was the other way around, and Player A claims that he thought Player B folded, the Floor would need to be called over.
The likely ruling would be that Player A gets his last bet back but loses the pot already in the middle to Player B.
 

10centguitar

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And if player B turned over the winning hand but it was still unknown if he had said "call" and hadn't placed his chips into the middle?

It would have to be established that he said call, if not he killed his hand whether it was a winner or not.

Because player B was trying to pass the amount over after the fact, it means he meant call, but he would have to say that or someone at the table would get fussy.

Regardless someone should tell the dealer to be more careful.
 

DrStrange

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I see this play happen a lot at home games and always strive to jump into the middle of it whether I am hosting or just a player. The question to clarify is: Are you calling, fold/showing or thinking? I ask as fast as I can because trouble can come really fast and hard.

Most of the times no one gets mad and shower was not trying to angle-shoot. There have been a few less than happy encounters, but I don't have much compassion for angle-shooters.

In a home game, I think the table is better off if the players jump in and defang this situation before it gets out of hand.

It is not as clear at a casino. This type of issue falls to the dealer and floor to prevent/solve. The situation in the opening post is unacceptable if it happens regularly.

DrStrange
 

ChipEnvy

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This is on the dealer. However, if I am player A, I am not showing my hand until I know the action is on me to do so.
 
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