Another plo spot

xt!

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Same game. This time I'm up against the 2, 3, 5, and 6 seats.

The 2 seat is fully capable of getting up or down 10k in a 1-2 or 5-5 plo game. He is very good if he has a stack, very gambly to get a stack. He has recently been stacked 3 or 4 times by me and just bought for another 1000.

Seat 3 is a 1-2 and 5-5 grinder. He's probably the biggest winner at those levels, he's tight, and I don't recall ever seeing him put chips in the middle bad. He's playing around 3500.

I cover in the 4 seat.

Pf seat 2 raises utg to 20. Seat 3 calls. I call with 7662dd. Two others call.

Flop AdTd6c. Seat 2 leads out for 100. (Timing, body language, chip action tells me he's probably ready to put it all in) Seat 3 raises to 300.

Wwyd, why, what's your plan?
 

DrStrange

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I can't make much sense of the preflop call. Hero's hand looks scripted to miss the flop if Hero is lucky, on a bad day Hero picks up a lesser flush draw or a chance at under-full. <Shrug> I would have sent those to the muck ASAP.

And now Hero is in the pickle I feared. Hero could be drawing to one out with bottom set. The flush draw could be fool's gold. And we have the best player at the table raising. Oh, and we are playing 700bb deep. Not me sir - toss the hand into the muck.

DrStrange
 

xt!

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Never said he was the best player at the table, just biggest winner in the smaller games.

I was wondering if anyone (you specifically) would advocate folding pre, but I have position vs someone I've stacked 4 or 5 times already this session and I'm 50:1 on the pf call with low likelyhood of a 3 bet pre. Why would I ever want to fold that pre?
 

DrStrange

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Hero should fold preflop not because of the price to call but because of the RIO problems post flop. 7662 single suited seems like a hard hand to make profitable even with position and a skill advantage. I don't play much PLO and certainly not at these stakes, so I might not have a clue how things really work, but I see far more trouble playing Hero's hand than folding it - Hero hit the flop hard, bottom set and weak flush draw, and yet folding looks at least plausible.

As for the villain that concerns me - - - - "Seat 3 is a 1-2 and 5-5 grinder. He's probably the biggest winner at those levels, he's tight, and I don't recall ever seeing him put chips in the middle bad. He's playing around 3500."

Maybe one of the guys from the bigger games is better than this guy, but the villain who is normally the biggest winner in this game merits a high level of respect. His range is dominating Hero's hand, though it is possible the he has only one of Hero's draws dominated. Thing is, Hero doesn't know what card he wants even playing this villain in isolation and it seems likely Hero is also going to play vs Seat 2 as well.

And things only get worse. Hero has two more players to act after him before we get back to Seat 2. Hero thinks that Seat 2 who lead out for 100 is ready to put it all in. Is Hero prepared to play for stacks now if Seat 2 jams and Seat 3 rejams? Seat 3 certainly might jam on top of Seat 2's jam trying to isolate Seat 2. Things might not go that route, but it is an extra problem if Hero just calls the $300 from Seat 3.

Maybe Hero has enough fold equity to 3-bet and blow Seat 3 off the hand, but I have to think Hero's style is well known to Seat 3. Hero's villain descriptions really don't say enough for us to judge the risk/reward from further aggression from Hero (though I would say that a 3-bet risks more money than it wins, so Hero needs a solid chunk of fold equity from Seat 3 plus a chuck of donkey equity from Seat 2 to make this play profitable).

It would be helpful for OP to expound on Hero's thinking, because in my ignorance I can't figure how this story ends well for Hero over the long run.

DrStrange
 

Ben

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I have to concur with everything Doc has said on this one. Calling pre is REALLY marginal IMO but OK whatevs, we're 700 bb deep. Fold flop - what possible ranges can we put these guys on where this is going to turn out well for us more often than not?
 

xt!

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It's weird that I took exception to you calling him the best in the game. I thought better of that as soon as I hit submit and walked into a meeting. Just strange semantics to get caught up on.

I did fold, and I think that really bodes well for my calling pre. I'm in a spot where I can play perfectly from position against the guy who wants to gambol, and I wasn't the least bit concerned with anyone on my left out playing me.
 
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