Angle shoot, thoughts? (2 Viewers)

p5woody

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This happened in a home monthly league, 30 player tournament if that matters. People are playing for cash and points for year end event. Game is semi-serious, wide range of players, and is well run (not my game). How would this be handled in a casino? and is this a big deal?

3 players get to the river, first 10 minutes of the tournament, so all stacks are essentially equal, Player 1 has the other two covered by like 200.

Player 1 goes all in on the river
Player 2 goes into the tank for a few minutes and then calls
Player 1 then goes to show his cards 'apparently' forgetting about player 3, the table tells him to wait for player 3
Player 1 does not show his cards and makes a comment saying "I was going to show a losing hand".

Player 3 goes into the tank for a few minutes and then decides to make the call
Player 1 had the nuts and knocks the other two out.

More details: The board is Q,9,8,K,2 - no possible flush
Player 1 - had J,10 and flopped the nut straight on the Q,9,8 flop
Player 2 - had 9,8 so they flopped two pair, thinking Player1 missed his draw and his two pair is good
Player 3 - had K,Q so they turned top two pair, Player 3 said he was going to fold but when Player 1 said he had a losing hand, layer 2 went in the tank, so he thought he was good.
 
Not cool. That definitely seems like an angle.

In the casino, they would just warn him for table talk i would imagine, but he’d still win the pot as it was one instance.
 
In a casino, player 1 wins and gets shot some dirty looks.

Is it a big deal? If I was certain that he didn’t know player 3 was still live I might let it slide. If I was certain that Player 1 motioned to fold knowing Player 3 was live to set up the angle, I would call him out on his bullshit and tell him to knock it off.
 
I've led out river with a flush and straight board. When my nitty opponent went in to the tank, I said, "I guess you don't have the flush." He called and I showed the nut flush.

Sounds like he was trying the induce calls more than get information from you. In fact, because his action was closed out, it can't be an angle. But definitely table talk. Depends how the house handles it, but it's generally discouraged in a multi-way pot.
 
Pretty greasy to make that comment AFTER being warned another player has action pending . . . VERY greasy.

How experienced a player is the villain?
 
Context is really everything. It just seems like he was making up for his faux pas, trying to undo the show of strength his impatience just revealed.
 
Definitely poor sportsmanship but not really that much of an angle. Basically, he just lied about the strength of his hand, which is fairly commonplace
 
Pretty greasy to make that comment AFTER being warned another player has action pending . . . VERY greasy.

How experienced a player is the villain?
Very experienced, he is the league leader. He has done some questionable things in the past but nothing this obvious. He normally tries to play it off as oh shucks I don't know what I am doing when people call him out on it. Overall is a good guy but likes to do these types of things. I was not in the hand and have never personally had an issue with him, I have just seen things he has done over the years with others. I was sitting between Player 1 and 3 so I saw and heard everything, I was not in the hand so no hard feelings on my end.

I had a home game last night and this was brought up and discussed and just wanted others opinions. I don't typically play in casinos so don't have a frame of reference.
 
They usually tell you off the first time for table talk and will likely warn you if you do it a second time in the same hand.

I’ve actually never seen a hand folded by the dealer or floor for table talk before.
 
Definitely poor sportsmanship but not really that much of an angle. Basically, he just lied about the strength of his hand, which is fairly commonplace
If it was heads up people in my group figured it was no big deal, however with it being 3 way it also impacted player 2 by inducing action from player 3. Even if he had been telling the truth, if nothing was said player 3 folds and Player 2 wins the pot. So not the fact that he lied, but impacted action in the hand.
 
I should add, if the guy was thinking and then faked tossing his cards to the muck and then decided "he'd stick around" I'd be ruling him out of order. We've had that happen a few times and it has never been tolerated. But anytime a player can't wait to table cards? That should send some red flags. Free information if you will.
 
I agree with @Quicksilver-75 100%, this really isn't an angle.

Best hand wins. Player probably deserves warnings for tabling hand out of turn and comments in a multi way pot. Neither warrant a penalty this early.

There is no way the first player would have tabled on purpose just to shoot this angle, even if you want to call it an angle. He was probably doing some version of trying to make it less obvious he tried to show the nuts as I think @WedgeRock was alluding.

Why risk prematurely exposing the nuts, just to pull of this move?

The table talk was deliberate and in a multi way pot probably warrants a warning and maybe an orbit penalty, if repeated. But I think calling this an "angle shoot" is way too strong.
 
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Very experienced, he is the league leader. He has done some questionable things in the past but nothing this obvious. He normally tries to play it off as oh shucks I don't know what I am doing when people call him out on it.

I would look unfavourably on this. He is obviously an experienced player who "should" know the rules, but ignores them due to a lack of consequences. He clearly feels he can derive an advantage through this sort of shenanigans. Deny him that chance going forward.

Overall is a good guy but likes to do these types of things. I was not in the hand and have never personally had an issue with him, I have just seen things he has done over the years with others.

Reinforces the notion above that he is taking advantage of lesser players using questionable ethics, "because he can". Host should make a clear announcement that such nonsense will not be tolerated before play starts for the evening, and then ENFORCE THE RULE.

I was sitting between Player 1 and 3 so I saw and heard everything, I was not in the hand so no hard feelings on my end.

ALL players have an obligation to protect the integrity of the game.

I had a home game last night and this was brought up and discussed and just wanted others opinions. I don't typically play in casinos so don't have a frame of reference.

The fact this is being discussed among the group shows that action needs to be taken. It does not have to be drastic. It could be as simple as a close friend of villain's speaking to him quietly before the next game, and letting him know his "tricks" are not appreciated and will not be tolerated. Make sure that he understands this private caution is meant as a means of avoiding embarrassment at the table, and will not be brought up during the game without cause (ie, he pulls some sort of crap again).
 
In my games, this would rate a "well played" award. But we have very wide standards about table talk. Lying about your hand to get a loser to call a bet seems normal to me. A guy almost tables out of turn, gets corrected and then tells a story of woe to induce a call from a loser - so what? Should we expect he is going to tell only the truth about his hand at a poker table?

If Hero's games are "silent as the grave" types of affairs where speaking at the table regarding anything poker is forbidden, then the guy talking about poker is out of line. Penalty is a house decision - anything from stern looks to a formal warning to physically throwing him off the property and a life ban.

Bottom line, you guys make what ever rules you think work best for you and follow them. I do not see a foul here, but I have a great tolerance for shenanigans in the games. If the game at Hero's games see a misdeed in the play, then punish the offender however your rules require.

Be careful what you with for -=- DrStrange
 
And I think the good Doctor brings up a valid argument . . .

What is the general atmosphere of the game itself?

My comments reference, as I am sure most others do, the behaviour around the games I usually play in, from the recreational to the more serious (in terms of stakes).
 
If you really have to angle, take that behaviour to a seedier environment where everyone can angle each other, use marked cards, hidden cameras, and even have pistols out in the open.

If it were my game and I saw someone do that, this would be the result:

file.ashx
 
If it was heads up people in my group figured it was no big deal, however with it being 3 way it also impacted player 2 by inducing action from player 3. Even if he had been telling the truth, if nothing was said player 3 folds and Player 2 wins the pot. So not the fact that he lied, but impacted action in the hand.

Minor correction for the sake of clarity. In the O.P., player one won the pot.

Context is important. I play in a smaller weekly MTT and we have a player who will often go into the tank for a couple of minutes. I have never understood why some players need a lengthy amount of time to make a decision, but it happens. I especially don't understand why after waiting two minutes for someone to make up their mind whether to call or fold other players left in the hand need additional time in determining their action. I have been caught prematurely showing my hand when this has occurred. Someone will tell me the action is on so and so, who is also taking his time in making up his mind what to do.

It is no different than being in line at MacDonald's while the person in front is staring at the menu deciding what it is they want to order, only to find out that the next person in line doesn't have a clue what it is they want when the action is on them. Kind of like watching cows chew on their cud. Your mind tends to wander. (Especially when you are holding the nuts.)

I can see myself saying something along the same vein if I mistakenly thought the other player was last to act and their was a small delay by player three.

However, DarPordo, made a good point. If the player in question feigned mucking his cards, then I may consider letting that player know how you and the others feel about such behavior.

Really, if he is successfully getting paid off by these "ah shuck, I don't know what I am doing" bag of tricks over time, than all the more power to him. The rest of the players should be familiar with his style of play by now, just like people should know what it is they are going to order when they step into MacDonald's.
 
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I'm with @DrStrange on this one. In my game it would be, "Yeah, you got me, nice hand." In others it might be a warning or penalty for talking about your hand in a multiway pot.
 
This is an angle and would have been fine if the pot was heads up. Lying about your hand and trying to induce heads up is fine. Three handed the speech is unacceptable and player 1 should have kept his mouth shut about the strength of his hand.
 
If you really have to angle, take that behaviour to a seedier environment where everyone can angle each other, use marked cards, hidden cameras, and even have pistols out in the open.

If it were my game and I saw someone do that, this would be the result:

file.ashx


forcing someone to do your yard work because they angle shoot at your game seems very fair, and creative.:D
 
Verbal warning to player 1 for talking when three-way action. Sit-out penalty next time it happens.

Not an angle-shoot, imo. If he's successful using these types of obvious shenanigans, the rest of the players need to wake up and become (information) recipients rather than (misinformation) victims.
 
3 players get to the river, first 10 minutes of the tournament, so all stacks are essentially equal, Player 1 has the other two covered by like 200.

Player 1 (described as: Very experienced and is the league leader) goes all in on the river
Player 2 goes into the tank for a few minutes and then calls
Player 1 then goes to show his cards 'apparently' forgetting about player 3, the table tells him to wait for player 3
Player 1 does not show his cards and makes a comment saying "I was going to show a losing hand".

Player 3 goes into the tank for a few minutes and then decides to make the call
Player 1 had the nuts and knocks the other two out.

More details: The board is Q,9,8,K,2 - no possible flush
Player 1 - had J,10 and flopped the nut straight on the Q,9,8 flop
Player 2 - had 9,8 so they flopped two pair, thinking Player1 missed his draw and his two pair is good
Player 3 - had K,Q so they turned top two pair, Player 3 said he was going to fold but when Player 1 said he had a losing hand, layer 2 went in the tank, so he thought he was good.

Reread the O.P.

The veteran player who leads the league puts his tournament life at risk in a three-way pot 10 minutes into the game. Seriously, what is the case we are making here? Are his opponents truly that gullible? Seems like sour grapes.

Hey Jamie Gold, go easy and keep quiet! You know how easily these other players can be lead into making the wrong decision. Shame on you for taking the fun out of the game!

My stance may be dickish, but whatever happened to thinking it through. (Time wasn't an issue.) Horrible play. Now they want to put the blame on player one, like he is the culprit.

Give me a break. I may give them a sympathetic ear or give them food for thought, but I certainly would not be siding with them.
 
Thanks for all comments, is there a difference if he was telling the truth and did have the losing hand? Player 3 was going to fold but based on comment decides to call, this would have impacted player 2. That is why I thought it should be discouraged but no penalty.

FYI - The league is a mix of experienced players and rec players. I have seen him manipulate some of the less experienced players. I don't have a problem playing against him and he normally finishes in the middle of the league but this year he has been on a roll. I have finished 2nd the last two years and looks like I will be finishing 2nd again this year.
 
In what way is player two being impacted? Player three should have seen his house was on fire, I don't know if I would buy into his "I was going to fold" line. He made a bad call. Show me an honest poker player and I will show you a person who is easily deceived.

Do you mean points, because player 1 had both players covered.

To answer your question. There is no difference. The only question is whether or not his action of acting prematurely was intentional. My gut instinct is yes. But I have been caught doing the same thing unintentionally after a prolonged tank by an opponent when a third player is hidden from view or has his cards covered.

The only foul I can find here is if Player one took the extra step of feigning a muck when he delivered his line.
 

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