Angle or Gamesmanship? (1 Viewer)

Angle or gamesmanship?


  • Total voters
    30
One thing I have learned (from reading and not the hard way), is always make the guy you’re calling show his cards, unless he wants to just muck. If he wants to muck, I’ll take down the pot without showing. Otherwise, show your cards. As I saw someone here post: “Action’s on you.”


The first hand

 
I had situation at the table I was organizing. That was reg (not total stranger but rather regular at casino and illegal poker clubs with big ego) vs amator (guy playing pool at the club we were playing). At the showdown reg who was called and said Ace Jack so top pair top kicker. Hearing that amator mucked his hand. Reg scupped the pot but when he was throwing away his hand cards flipped over showing total air. Situation was tensed but there was nothing I could do. The winning hand was mucked. Someone said that he should get the pot and than have his teeth knocked out. After few minutes played agreed to split the pot. After that during cigarette break I had a little pow wow with reg and told him that if he do that little trick again he will not be welcome any more.

My assessment of the situation was on the one hand that was nasty behavior but according to the rules mucked hand is a dead hand plus we will not play in seclusion all the time and eventually people start playing in other less civilised places (in Poland cash games are not allowed in casinos) so it is better they learn the hard way.
 
IMHO, as I understand it:

Amator is not entitled to rely on his opponent's verbal declaration; accordingly, he cannot claim that his discard should be rescinded upon discovering his opponent's verbal declaration was in error, or even a fabrication. His discard stands, and his opponent wins the pot by being the only live hand.

Reg is not entitled to intentionally misrepresent his hand during the showdown (before the showdown is an entirely different matter). The organizer is within his rights to apply a penalty at his discretion. A warning on the first occasion seems appropriate, followed by ejection and surrender of the pot on the second occasion.

Buying some goodwill with the other players for his transgression by splitting the pot is probably a good idea on his part, but from the organizer's perspective it should be entirely voluntary.

... in other words I think you handled it exactly right.
 
IMHO, as I understand it:

Amator is not entitled to rely on his opponent's verbal declaration; accordingly, he cannot claim that his discard should be rescinded upon discovering his opponent's verbal declaration was in error, or even a fabrication. His discard stands, and his opponent wins the pot by being the only live hand.

Reg is not entitled to intentionally misrepresent his hand during the showdown (before the showdown is an entirely different matter). The organizer is within his rights to apply a penalty at his discretion. A warning on the first occasion seems appropriate, followed by ejection and surrender of the pot on the second occasion.

Buying some goodwill with the other players for his transgression by splitting the pot is probably a good idea on his part, but from the organizer's perspective it should be entirely voluntary.

... in other words I think you handled it exactly right.
Thank you... 7 years twice a week. I learned a lot from tournament director from Warsaw Casino who used to work for EPT. In peek of the game I had 4 tables with about 30 players. It is short of miracle that I avoided any police entanglements. I have felt like a small time Teddy KGB for the brief moment.
 
Miscalling your hand during showdown is covered by Section 1 (Poker Etiquette) of Robert's Rules of Poker, and is grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:
  • Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.
Additional rules applicable to miscalling hands during showdown are in Section 3 (The Showdown):
  1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
  2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.
In the OP's example, the casino clearly has the authority to both 1) bar the offending player, and 2) award the pot to the player who discarded his hand as a result of the offending player's illegal action.


EDIT: I voted "angle", and feel that the player was justified in calling for a floor ruling (who then got it wrong). In nearly all cases, it is in the best interest of the game for the best hand to be awarded the pot if at all possible.
 
Last edited:
Miscalling your hand during showdown is covered by Section 1 (Poker Etiquette) of Robert's Rules of Poker, and is grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:
  • Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.
Additional rules applicable to miscalling hands during showdown are in Section 3 (The Showdown):
  1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
  2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.
In the OP's example, the casino clearly has the authority to both 1) bar the offending player, and 2) award the pot to the player who discarded his hand as a result of the offending player's illegal action.


EDIT: I voted "angle", and feel that the player was justified in calling for a floor ruling (who then got it wrong). In nearly all cases, it is in the best interest of the game for the best hand to be awarded the pot if at all possible.

Just to be clear, this was not at showdown. Player 1 made a bet and player 2 was deciding if he should call or not. Player 2 ultimately folded without calling the bet. Player 1 then showed his hand after player 2 folded.
 
Just to be clear, this was not at showdown. Player 1 made a bet and player 2 was deciding if he should call or not. Player 2 ultimately folded without calling the bet. Player 1 then showed his hand after player 2 folded.
Yeah I have to believe that most of the people who voted "angle" didn't understand the video
 
Just to be clear, this was not at showdown. Player 1 made a bet and player 2 was deciding if he should call or not. Player 2 ultimately folded without calling the bet. Player 1 then showed his hand after player 2 folded.
I think @BGinGA was responding to @surfik's situation, which was at the showdown. Not the video, which was not.
 
Oof. This entire thread reminds me of why I hate playing poker sometimes. I need some empty racks. Cash me out please.
 
Gamesmanship, dude got Will Kassoufed and now is salty about it

As far as I can tell from the video

Winner: bets and lies about his holding

Loser: folds what would have been the winner, gets shown the bluff, can't believe someone LIED to him at the poker table but was fucking dumb enough to TRUST his opponent, calls the floor about it

*Karen confirmed*

kassouf1.png
 
Gamesmanship, dude got Will Kassoufed and now is salty about it

As far as I can tell from the video

Winner: bets and lies about his holding

Loser: folds what would have been the winner, gets shown the bluff, can't believe someone LIED to him at the poker table but was fucking dumb enough to TRUST his opponent, calls the floor about it

*Karen confirmed*

View attachment 537041
Haha imagine being shocked that someone didn't tell you their exact holding whilst you are considering calling their bet.
 
What in the name of 1/2 Fixed-Limit, $20 minimum buy-in, hooting & hollering when you win an $8 pot, how does not one of these scrubs have shades & a hoody on, no fold'em hold'em (except when the guy TELLS you he has a full house and you fold for ONE BET) is this???!!!

lowlimit.png



I mean, I'm not imaging things, those are $1 chips I'm assuming?
 
Yeah that guy should crawl into a hole and die. That was a terrible angle.
 
Can this poll be posted again? I'm interested in the results, but I feel that it has been convoluted by the misunderstanding that there was a showdown. It was a bet and a fold, right?

I voted gamesmanship. I mean, bluffing and then saying "ya better fold, I got it!" (or any variation of that) can hardly be angling, can it? If you're not allowed to lie at the poker table, then you might as well outlaw left turns in nascar...
 


This the REALLLL angler!!! LOL!

I think what was more tilting to me is how those two guys after the slimy scumbag looked at one card, then slowly looked at their second card

Maybe that's how they were told to do it because of the camera system, but just irked me how unecessarily slow it seemed
 


This the REALLLL angler!!! LOL!

If I were in a position of authority here, he'd have gotten a warning after the second offense that he'll be DQed if it happens again. Or if I can't eject him for some reason, he gets a disproportionate number of penalty orbits.

Gotta let the hand play out, as it's not fair to other players if KQ gets the pot there. After that, Freitez is gone on the basis of rule #1, even if there's no other rule that specifically condemns his behavior, and I'd have him banned from playing any poker after that.

Angle-shooting scumbags ruin poker for everyone and should not be tolerated.
 
Still haven’t watched the video but when playing in a casino or cardroom I never release my hand until I’m shown the winning hand or until the pot is pushed my way. Too many angle shooters out there
 
Still haven’t watched the video but when playing in a casino or cardroom I never release my hand until I’m shown the winning hand or until the pot is pushed my way. Too many angle shooters out there

Not what the video is about. The behavior in question happens with action still pending, not at showdown.
 

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