Angered half the table....

Discussion in 'Poker Strategy' started by Chris La Mantia, Apr 15, 2018 at 6:14 PM.

  1. Apr 15, 2018 at 6:14 PM
    #1
    Chris La Mantia

    Chris La Mantia Pair

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    So I'm playing on PokerStars in the Sunday Billion play chip tourney.

    We're already in the money. My stack is about 72K, villain has 175K. I'm dealt :kc::5c:. Villain raises preflop with what turns out to be :ac::qh:. One other call. Flop is :qc::2c::9c:. Villain puts me all in, other folds. I call. He misses his flush and boat, and I take the 190Kish pot. Three or four people are hurling "Donk" and "Bingoer" around because I dared to call a preflop raise with K4 suited. But we were already in the money; is this really that bad of a play?

    (Edit: Details corrected, but they were close)
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018 at 6:23 PM
  2. Apr 15, 2018 at 6:15 PM
    #2
    BGinGA

    BGinGA Tourney Director

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    Depends. How big was the raise?
     
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  3. Apr 15, 2018 at 6:17 PM
    #3
    Chris La Mantia

    Chris La Mantia Pair

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    I want to say 3BB. Nothing super amazing.
     
  4. Apr 15, 2018 at 6:18 PM
    #4
    Chris La Mantia

    Chris La Mantia Pair

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    Found the history, it was 3BB (7200). I corrected some details in the OP (they were close though).
     
  5. Apr 15, 2018 at 8:02 PM
    #5
    Mental Nomad

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    I don't think K5s is a super-donk move against a small raise. Not brilliant, either.

    It depends a lot on how aggro Villian is, position, etc., it may be a decent move or a bad one. Example: if the action is a conservative Villain in early position who raises, and you call immediately after Villain with many to act behind you - not good! But if Villain raises really often, and you're the last to call, it's a solid move.
     
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  6. Apr 15, 2018 at 8:13 PM
    #6
    upNdown

    upNdown Tourney Director

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    I've been known to play suited kings.
    And, I've been known to play bad poker.
    I don't know if there's ever anything wrong with paying 3 big blinds to see a flop, and hanging around if you smash it (or if you want to act like you smashed it.)
    I think there's something pretty silly about people getting annoyed enough to call somebody names when they're playing with pretend chips.
     
  7. Apr 15, 2018 at 8:16 PM
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    BGinGA

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    Calling 10% of my (short) stack when closing the action -- especially with position -- isn't too bad. But if others have yet to act, or the raiser is a rock, I think it's a clear fold.
     
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  8. Apr 15, 2018 at 8:20 PM
    #8
    CHP TD

    CHP TD Straight

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    just turn off comments from players or rail birds.

    when your copping crap at the table you know youre winning.
     
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  9. Apr 15, 2018 at 9:56 PM
    #9
    Milo013

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    Play how you like, ignore the whingers.
     
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  10. Apr 15, 2018 at 10:16 PM
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    XBobdog

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    No, I don't think it is a bad play at all. First, because it won. Hi fives all around.

    But mostly because staying inside of every other players expectations of how you SHOULD play is, well predictable.

    I wouldn't play those cards every hand, but if you have a fair feeling for when this hand becomes good, when you need to fold, and when it can really hurt you. Play away.
     
  11. Apr 15, 2018 at 11:41 PM
    #11
    moose

    moose Flush

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    It's play money. Shove and get the hell out of there.
     
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  12. Apr 15, 2018 at 11:44 PM
    #12
    Chris La Mantia

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    I finished up 40th of 1840 players for a take of about 5 million (1 mil buy in but I had a ticket). My best large tourney showing, I think.
     
  13. Apr 16, 2018 at 5:59 AM
    #13
    Coyote

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    Just like warfare, it's not a talent show, and the winner is not determined by spectators' (let alone opponents') vote.
    Congrats man!
     
  14. Apr 16, 2018 at 9:06 AM
    #14
    Steve Birrer

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    If I read this correctly, villain raised 3X and had one caller before you had to act. If that is correct then no I am not calling with K 5 suited. Not against two hands.

    And as other have stated also depends on if there were players left to act behind you or not. Additionally, you didn't say what the blind level was so its kind of hard to make a real judgement. 3X for a raise needs to be compared to your stack. If the blinds for instance were 4/8K then a 3X raise would have been for 24K or about 1/3 of your stack. So really need to know those details to suggest a course of action.
     
  15. Apr 16, 2018 at 9:16 AM
    #15
    BGinGA

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    Per posts #3 and #4, raise was 3xBB to 7200, so 1200/2400 blind level. 10% of hero's 72K stack.
     
  16. Apr 16, 2018 at 9:32 AM
    #16
    DrStrange

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    If Hero is taking a value oriented approach to hand selection, there is little to recommend playing K5s for 10% of your stack and a SPR ~3.

    The flush draw is the biggest "strength" of this hand. Hero has less than a 1% chance to flop a flush and about 9% to flop a flush draw (which whiffs two times in three). Hero gets quite fortunate to 1) flop the flush, 2) not get drawn out vs the naked ace, and 3) find a villain with a good enough hand to stack off on a monochrome flop. I don't feel Hero got paid nearly enough for the cost of his risk. The results were as good as possible though.

    There is a sizable RIO risk should Hero flop top pair. With a low SPR is could be easy to stack off only to find top pair / no kicker is a second best hand. I wonder what Hero's plan was for this turn of events.

    If Hero is taking a villain oriented approach to hand selection, well then it doesn't matter so much about what the cards are. Hero plans to bluff a big chunk of the time, thinking that he can out play the table. We don't have a good way to evaluate this approach, maybe is was folly, maybe it was the winning plan.

    I don't recommend this line given the stack sizes vs the cost to play the hand. However, I can't fault the results. -=- DrStrange
     
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  17. Apr 16, 2018 at 9:48 AM
    #17
    longflop

    longflop Pair

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    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Apr 16, 2018 at 11:15 AM
    #18
    Chris La Mantia

    Chris La Mantia Pair

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    Thank you for this great analysis!

    I was certainly a bit emboldened by the fact that I was already in the money and collecting 1.5mil if I was sent to the rail. But buying too many flops is a weakness of mine, along with an intentional tendency to try to make it difficult to pin a range on me (so early on I will play some truly donk hands when it's cheap).

    Thank you all for your input
     
  19. Apr 16, 2018 at 11:24 AM
    #19
    Steve Birrer

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    Thanks, I didn't catch that. So putting in 10% my stack on a suited K. Don't think so. I get hero is already "in the money" but there are much better places to try and move up the pay ladder than this hand, IMO.
     
  20. Apr 16, 2018 at 11:47 AM
    #20
    longflop

    longflop Pair

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    That's another interesting theory question for the guys more experienced than me. Is there value (I know it would be hard to quantify) in calling down something early in a tourney situation, if its cheap enough, against unknown players, with any two cards? That would get the other guys at the table thinking "holy shit, this guy will play anything", when you really don't, which is a bonus.
     
  21. Apr 16, 2018 at 11:52 AM
    #21
    upNdown

    upNdown Tourney Director

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    I think there's value in exploiting whatever table image that you've developed during a tournament. I wouldn't intentionally piss away chips to create an image for many reasons, not the least of which is that you could be moved to a different table where nobody knows you're "crazy."
     
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  22. Apr 16, 2018 at 5:31 PM
    #22
    Chris La Mantia

    Chris La Mantia Pair

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    Excellent point. And by this point in the tourney a lot of tables were being condensed out of play.