Ancient Near East Chip Set design mock ups (1 Viewer)

[Erich Wise]

I am attaching here my design for 3 versions of sets I have been working on. Included are the CPC Chip Designer (thank you J5 and David Sprag) .PNG files and their greyscale variants for:

Full Cash Set; Denominations:
$0.05
$0.25
$1.00
$5.00
$20.00
$100.00

Cali Color Set; Denominations:
$0.25
$1.00
$5.00
$20.00

Tournament Set; Base 60; T12K:
T12
T60
T300
T1500
T7500

The Cash sets are designed with hot stamps, front with symbols and patterns from the Ancient Near Eastern peoples; including the seed of life, the asphodel, and several dead gods encircled within a ring. The denominations are hot stamped on the back with a cuneiform marking for the denomination within a ring. I am still thinking about a five cent chip for the Cali set, and would likely only order either the "Full Cash Set" or the Cali color set. I also included the Hot Stamp Icon design in a clear to see black and white image clear from the chip as the actual hot stamp is easier to see then in the image as "gold."

As for the Tourney set. I know that the main/first gripe/comment/critique/warning/help (lol) will be that the base sixty numeration will be too weird. It's weird, but it is also better in numerous ways, and works with the Ancient Near East theme. One question I do have, and I'd be curious what @BAinGA thinks here, would the T300 still be used far less then the others, like with the chip it "replaces (T500)." The units are equally spaced and so the blind structure and play would be even as well.

It is fine to give your opinion, snark, criticisms. I am not going to get hurt by anything said here, but I am curious about what the community thinks. It is not a set that is particularly light and playful, I know. I did put the units in clear legible numeration. The inlay includes a star/flower of eight points with blue and red blended points behind the numerals which also reads as an explosion like that of a sale sign and plays with the poker/casino dazzle dazzle. On the backs are the Sumerian Eyes (creepy).

Also I have a sample color set and am aware of the dayglo Saturn color, I may also be one of the few fans.
I attach the greyscale because it helps to identify dirty stack issues as well as make sure others who read colors differently will not have a difficult time.

The designs have changed quite a bit over time, and with lots of patience from David explaining why it was impossible to do various designs. As it is they won't do Diamond Square Hot Stamping etc...

If there is any interest I am happy to post previous designs and iterations, as well as my spreadsheet for possible order and breakdowns.

Thank you for your time, questions, and comments.

 

[200 Motels]

The inlay concept is very out of the ordinary. I don't feel it works functionally or from a design concept.

Hotstamps: you'll be able to see the where your half pie and quarter pie chips interlock. That's just nasty imo. It's like having a translucent hood on your car.

Eye inlay: I think there's a way to incorporate your denom and the eye design into one good inlay. Have you seen the great traditional inlay designs on this forum? Do they not appeal to you?

Regarding the color selection. There is an awful lot of yellow in your first set. Also the really complex edge spots (I've never been a fan) are very busy and I think are a bad value considering how nice some of the more simple edge patterns can look with the right color and inlay combination.

Next...
T12
T60
T300
T1500
T7500

I don't understand the need for these nontraditional denoms. How does the tried and tested 25/100/500/1k or 5/25/100/500 not work?

The color choices on the eyeball set are really nice.

Also, I didn't know gods die. How's that even work?

 

[Psypher1000]

The hot stamp desigsn are interesting, but since they're abstract in some cases I find the spot patterns of the underlying clay hyper-distracting. If you're going to go forward with hot stamping on those designs I highly recommend using solids instead of spots. As beautiful as chips can be, they are typically designed to be used as tools; unless these are intended as pure art, then function should outweigh form.

As for the tournament design...I'm not completely sure how you're arriving at that aesthetic unless you're assuming the inlays will be color-matched. Note that the background of inlays can sometimes start out color-matched to the clay, but over time they won't stay that way. If you're assuming CPC will cut out the shape of the eyes/stars, I'm assuming you're either going to pay dearly for it, or (more likely) they won't. If going with color-matching, it's generally recommended that only the outer edge of the inlay is color-matched, and then a gradient is applied towards the center.

The denoms have traditional colors but non-traditional denominations. They are at least 5x all the way up the line, but regardless, I guarantee that will cause betting issue for everyone except for possibly you.

If I saw these chips in their current form - either design - I would legitimately leave rather than play. The I find the clashing stamp vs. clay designs too distracting, and the denoms on the tournament set are just a non-starter for me.

Best of luck w/your designs.

 

[Darson]

Take you time working this out - this will be an expensive endeavour so make sure you're happy and don't rush.

Speaking of expense, each unique hot stamp will require a new die to be made. I don't know how much these cost but given you have so many designs this may get more expensive than doing inlays. Something to calculate.

Also, colour matching inlays is difficult and sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. For your eye designs, it may look great on the screen but the actual product may not. Perhaps try a contrasting background.

 

[FordPickup92]

@BGinGA You've been requested when you have a chance

My 2 cents I love the chip colors and edgespots!!! The inlay idea is very cool as well!

 

[BarrieJ3]

This is a very eclectic group of designs! That being said, you’re going to get interesting feedback that will run the gamut. I think the hot stamps are cool, but like it’s been stated, that’s gonna cost some coin.

I really only have two personal takes on this. 1) I second the idea of the hot stamps being on solids, I don’t see the spots as value add. 2) Keep playing, possibly think about adding in the help of a designer from here. Share your ideas and thoughts, see what they come up with, and have something to compare these against. The best design threads I’ve seen (in my mind), are ongoing conversations where OP and readers go back and forth on various possible spot patterns, colors, design a vs design b, etc.

 

[Erich Wise]

At work, will reply later, but thank you all for your feedback so far, it is about what I expected, however there are a few things of interest...! yay.

 

[BGinGA]

I am attaching here my design for 3 versions of sets I have been working on. Included are the CPC Chip Designer (thank you J5 and David Sprag) .PNG files and their greyscale variants for:

Full Cash Set; Denominations:
$0.05
$0.25
$1.00
$5.00
$20.00
$100.00

Cali Color Set; Denominations:
$0.25
$1.00
$5.00
$20.00

Tournament Set; Base 60; T12K:
T12
T60
T300
T1500
T7500

The Cash sets are designed with hot stamps, front with symbols and patterns from the Ancient Near Eastern peoples; including the seed of life, the asphodel, and several dead gods encircled within a ring. The denominations are hot stamped on the back with a cuneiform marking for the denomination within a ring. I am still thinking about a five cent chip for the Cali set, and would likely only order either the "Full Cash Set" or the Cali color set. I also included the Hot Stamp Icon design in a clear to see black and white image clear from the chip as the actual hot stamp is easier to see then in the image as "gold."

As for the Tourney set. I know that the main/first gripe/comment/critique/warning/help (lol) will be that the base sixty numeration will be too weird. It's weird, but it is also better in numerous ways, and works with the Ancient Near East theme. One question I do have, and I'd be curious what @BAinGA thinks here, would the T300 still be used far less then the others, like with the chip it "replaces (T500)." The units are equally spaced and so the blind structure and play would be even as well.

It is fine to give your opinion, snark, criticisms. I am not going to get hurt by anything said here, but I am curious about what the community thinks. It is not a set that is particularly light and playful, I know. I did put the units in clear legible numeration. The inlay includes a star/flower of eight points with blue and red blended points behind the numerals which also reads as an explosion like that of a sale sign and plays with the poker/casino dazzle dazzle. On the backs are the Sumerian Eyes (creepy).

Also I have a sample color set and am aware of the dayglo Saturn color, I may also be one of the few fans.
I attach the greyscale because it helps to identify dirty stack issues as well as make sure others who read colors differently will not have a difficult time.

The designs have changed quite a bit over time, and with lots of patience from David explaining why it was impossible to do various designs. As it is they won't do Diamond Square Hot Stamping etc...

If there is any interest I am happy to post previous designs and iterations, as well as my spreadsheet for possible order and breakdowns.

Thank you for your time, questions, and comments.

Wow.... a lot of the out-of-ordinary to ponder and absorb here. Here's an objective opinion:


Cash chips

Edge spot patterns -- I strongly recommend that you reconsider your choices of 1/2-pie and enhanced 1/4-pie base chips. These will not result in aesthetically-pleasing chips, with the underlying clay structures competing with the hot-stamp designs. The base 1/2-pie chip will appear as shown below, with half of your ordered chips having a canary dovetail, and the other half with a butterscotch dovetail. The 1/4-pie chips do not fare much better, creating a background canvas that is unevenly colored causing stamp clarity issues.... unless your hot-stamp design is very small and totally fits within the solid one-color center portion of the chip (which is not how you have designed them to date, and in most cases, would be too small to be easily legible).

Regarding the enhanced 1/4-pie patterns, generally speaking either solids or simpler edge spot patterns using relatively small spots are typically the best option for hot-stamped chips, from both aesthetic and playable perspectives. In this case, the complex geometry of the hot-stamp designs is compromised by the competing complex geometry of many of the chosen spot patterns. Sometimes less is more, allowing the stamps to be showcased rather than overshadowed.

Hot-stamp costs -- Hot stamp dies from CPC cost about $100-$150 each per unique design, in addition to die set-up fees ($11 to $27 per die change). That equates to roughly $1350 to $1950 in die costs/set-up fees alone, plus the cost of actually stamping the chips (15c per chip). That is no minor expense.

Hot-stamp designs -- Hot-stamp designs work best when using simplistic designs and line art. Several of the hot-stamp designs are extremely foil-heavy, and these types of designs rarely work well in real-world hot-stamped applications -- with associated high error rates during production and resulting in chips that will prematurely show heavy hot-stamp wear during actual use. In addition, the combination of gold foil and yellow/canary colors will render many of your hot-stamp design details near-invisible. Lastly, not having denominations on cash chips is a questionable practice at best for a fully-functioning cash set, and especially so for a set that uses non-standard colors (or appears as non-standard colors due to overly-complex spot patterns and colors, as in this case). The cash chips as a whole would be greatly improved if denominations were included in the hot-stamps on one side.

Tournament chips

Inlay designs -- Both the eye and star designs appear to utilize base color matching so as to appear as solo images in the context of the larger chip face. This approach rarely works well, as many (most?) clay colors cannot be accurately reproduced on the inlay medium, resulting in an image background color that is distractingly different from the surrounding clay (either initially or after time). Either a border (outlining the inlay and visually separating the the color differences between inlay background color and base clay color) or a gradient (allowing the color to fade from the inlay background to base clay, while not requiring that it exactly match the base color) are two ways that can better accomplish the goal within the means and restrictions of the two mediums. Lastly, the denominations -- while clearly legible -- are the weakest point of the design, and look like an afterthought rather than an integral part of the inlay. Consider ways to integrate them better into the design, whether through location, geometry, color, offset borders, or a combination of those design elements.

Color choices -- Using standard color choices for non-standard denominations is not advisable, due to the confusion and inevitable errors it will cause during play -- even with clearly-marked denominations, color is the primary visual cue and it will cause issues during play.

That aside, using dark colors together (dark green, black, and many purple shades) as base chip colors (even with different contrasting spots) is not wise, as those hues are too close to one another and will cause clarity and counting issues when mixed together in pots. A good general rule is that if using a dark color like black, other chips in play simultaneously should be lighter/brighter shades (light or dayglo green and pink or retro lavender, for example), while a lighter base color like grey can be paired with darker shades (dark or retro green and purple or blurple, for example).... although even in those examples, one needs to also avoid similar confusion between the green and purple hues. Your grayscale images also point out the need for these differences in base colors of chips in play together.

Denominations -- Using non-standard denominations in a tournament set introduces an extra layer of unnecessary complexity. Values are harder for players to remember, bets are harder to mentally construct (whether betting, calling, or raising), and both chip stacks and chip totals are harder to count. Regardless of anything else, there will be more mental effort required to play vs a similarly-structured event using standard denominations, with nothing really gained for the extra effort.

If set on using the non-standard denominations, I strongly urge you to change the 12 value chips to 15 value chips (still an acceptable 4x jump to 60) -- this will make the math aspect much easier while they are in play, and will make the 15 value chips more useful for larger combination bets. The T300 will have more value in this set than a T500 in a T1000 environment, similar to how a T500 chip is more integral when paired with T2000 chips.

Summary

Creating this set as a visual/tactile art form is one thing, although I think many of your choices regarding patterns, colors, and stamp/inlay designs could be dramatically improved from that perspective alone. Creating the set as a functional tool to be used for poker is another matter entirely, and it fails miserably in many areas in this regard as described above and by others. Combining the two is certainly possible, but requires a lot of work and compromise, little of which has been addressed so far here.

I'd hate to see a large sum of money invested in a set that both disappoints visually and is not very viable for actually playing poker. The basic set concepts and images are entirely valid, but still need a lot of work to make it a cohesive and finished product.

 

[Coyote]

Many helpful remarks here (especially, see just above), design-wise; still, it's your set and your money.
Where I would be categorical, is that the tournament denominations are un-f*ckin-playable, by anyone but Math PhDs with a twist. If there's enough people like that around you, so be it.

 

[Erich Wise]

The inlay concept is very out of the ordinary. I don't feel it works functionally or from a design concept.

Hotstamps: you'll be able to see the where your half pie and quarter pie chips interlock. That's just nasty imo. It's like having a translucent hood on your car.

Eye inlay: I think there's a way to incorporate your denom and the eye design into one good inlay. Have you seen the great traditional inlay designs on this forum? Do they not appeal to you?

Regarding the color selection. There is an awful lot of yellow in your first set. Also the really complex edge spots (I've never been a fan) are very busy and I think are a bad value considering how nice some of the more simple edge patterns can look with the right color and inlay combination.

Next...
T12
T60
T300
T1500
T7500

I don't understand the need for these nontraditional denoms. How does the tried and tested 25/100/500/1k or 5/25/100/500 not work?

The color choices on the eyeball set are really nice.

Also, I didn't know gods die. How's that even work?

Ok, this is great. I'm very glad to see the generosity of peoples time once again displayed. I will try and respond a bit.
This will be mostly off the top of my head and in order as I read through...

I know the inlay is out of the ordinary, that in and of itself is neutral in my opinion. However, if I saw a set that was everything I wanted I would just buy that. So to some extent this is an exercise in pushing design and boundaries. On the one hand it is perfectly fine that one or many may not think this functions either in design or in function (though this is arguably inseparable). On the other hand, this is why I brought it to this community as well. We may agree, disagree, or agree to disagree, but I don't want to dismiss the experience and knowledge base of this community, even if my set isn't exactly intended for the everyday poker player. It would be helpful to know if this is a matter of taste or something else though.

As far as seeing the dovetail of the colors in the half pie, this is a taste thing (separate from BGinGA's argument later) and I have a different eye (get it! jk). Also, since the metaphor was used, there are quite a few cars that in fact use a transparent (my apologies if this isn't what you meant) hood (I.E. Ferrari)

I played around quite a bit with the eye and the units, I have looked at all the sets (perhaps not all, but I've combed through quite a bit and read up on options of them) There are quite a few that are beautiful. I also think that they serve well for their purpose. Some I don't like as a matter of taste. Other choices I think are great for their owners but I would never choose, such as terms like club or especially casino. While I respect people who set up a room like a casino or create a man cave or she shed or...other non gendered themed gathering space, this is not my interest or intent, though it might be fun to go and play a night with a friend who has a spouse like this, it's not for me, at least not in this way.

Aside from the $0.05 chip and a bit in the $20, I am not sure there really is that much yellow. I am unsure if it is due to the hot stamp "gold" coloring or if this is simply too much yellow.

I do really like the simplicity of the solid colors, but I also really like the functionality of the spots. And I do like the paternities (clearly or I wouldn't use it, especially considering the cost) To each their own on taste, as I am not going to be ordering a set of custom made clay chips as a value proposition. (obviously I'm not rich so money does effect things, but I am not interested in saving some money for a design I am less happy with) That said, I've driven myself practically crazy going back and fourth with simple and complex designs. It is a rather fun exercise, though exhausting, in design, If I were still teaching design I might run an assignment like this.

Ok, so...the units for the tourney set. I have to say it was the thing that took the longest for me to make a decision on and I am still vacillating on it. On the one hand, none of this is really meant to be a strict formula or I'd buy a set that already exists. I would likely use a "traditional" set for a tourney that included "normal" poker players anyway. Though I really do think that in the "traditional" unit structure there really shouldn't be a T1,000 or T2,000 and it should be a T2,500 but that's me. Since the units aren't like a cash game they can be anything, and though there is an existing structure and I did start there and stayed there for quite a while, after learning cuneiform and really digging in to the sites and archeology, religion, empire, etc...I began to appreciate that the base 60 system is the actual "traditional" structure, and the math really isn't that hard, its a matter if counting to five. I do understand the point though, and I thought perhaps starting at 60 which leaves out the psychologically difficult two in twelve that will trip people up. Still thinking it through. But it's a great conversation starter, which is part of the point. And yes, I get that many people would just walk away and that's ok, as the game would never be about winning money or being serious in an isolated way, it is meant as a catalyst for people in different fields of study to spend time together and open up discussions they would otherwise not have with each other. The focus should be equally on these conversations (if not more to be honest) then the poker.

Thank you for the compliment on the color choice for the tourney set.

So I hope I don't offend anyone here, but, gods die. While there are lots of specifics I will be leaving out here, I'll attempt to give a hugely simplistic answer for the sake of brevity in an already long post.

In the case of the Ancient Near East, and I would defer to my partner on all things ANE, (except for maybe some of the imagery) cities each had their own gods, and there were pantheons of gods, if a city was sacked, often the god was killed and the conquering god took on the traits from the old god. this was very common. by the time you get to the beginning of history as we in the west know it, this had been going on for likely longer then our civilization has existed. In the same way that the Romans took on and incorporated the Greeks pantheon and made it their own, the greeks had taken from other groups, like the Sumerians, the assyrians, the Akkadians, Babylonians, Egyptians etc...What is thought of as the christian canon or the abrahamic faiths can be traced in the same manner. So when someone says that Zeus isn't real but Jesus is they are acknowledging that gods die.

Thank you 200 Motels.

 

[Erich Wise]

The hot stamp desigsn are interesting, but since they're abstract in some cases I find the spot patterns of the underlying clay hyper-distracting. If you're going to go forward with hot stamping on those designs I highly recommend using solids instead of spots. As beautiful as chips can be, they are typically designed to be used as tools; unless these are intended as pure art, then function should outweigh form.

As for the tournament design...I'm not completely sure how you're arriving at that aesthetic unless you're assuming the inlays will be color-matched. Note that the background of inlays can sometimes start out color-matched to the clay, but over time they won't stay that way. If you're assuming CPC will cut out the shape of the eyes/stars, I'm assuming you're either going to pay dearly for it, or (more likely) they won't. If going with color-matching, it's generally recommended that only the outer edge of the inlay is color-matched, and then a gradient is applied towards the center.

The denoms have traditional colors but non-traditional denominations. They are at least 5x all the way up the line, but regardless, I guarantee that will cause betting issue for everyone except for possibly you.

If I saw these chips in their current form - either design - I would legitimately leave rather than play. The I find the clashing stamp vs. clay designs too distracting, and the denoms on the tournament set are just a non-starter for me.

Best of luck w/your designs.

I had started with the idea of a solids set! Though that was before I had to do hot stamping. In fact the hot stamping only became a real thing due to cuneiform being the first written language (at least according to western Historical tradition) and it was wedges pressed into clay. Also, the same people introduced clay and metal tokens as cash. (as far as proven archeological evidence allows) so this is a nice connection. How could I resist pressing the denominations into the clay. originally I thought I would make the design with a hot metal piece I'd make and just brand them like cuneiform. But eventually I got into the idea of the hot stamp as a nice contemporary nod. They are only abstract to people who aren't of those religions, or who cannot read cuneiform, now I'll grant you that's a silly statement to a large degree (its mostly a joke). I do see what you mean buy the distracting quality. The original design was with an inlay that was too busy as I was using imagery of gods from later dates (thousands of years later) so I ended up digging all the way back to the original symbols of our gods which included the highest form of math to date and is base sixty, just saying lol.

Yeah I may end up with a solids set in the end, as this is how many things I've done turn out, lol.These are however designed to be tools as well, just not in the same way most who play poker might consider it. Going back to the chips and the game as a whole as a catalyst for conversation rather than as a capitalist venture.

Ok, so, the inlays. I got to the current iteration in much the same way I do everything else, the long way, lol. So I had a bunch of versions that included information like names of gods and the symbol with unit and patterns that were used in empire and what not. but many were too cluttered. Then David Spragg also gave me some good boundaries to work from. I did do a lot of changes and mostly was using black inlays with shapes and without and had some fades but I had really hoped that I could use gold foil in the printing of the inlays and David won't or can't do that. I dislike the idea of printing something to look like gold simply by photoshoperry (new term, lol) and so I tried out some other designs, but in the end I didn't like them, and I knew that color matching was a bitch and shouldn't go there, plus I really like shaped inlays and that's a whole lot of waste if they are color matched. But, during all the changes to the Chip Designer (Thank you again J5 and David Spragg) I had left the template circle transparent instead of something else on accident I think, and then I couldn't help myself, I love the eye the way I rendered it. And yes I did a lot of iterations with gradients, none that I have been happy with yet. I know that a transparent inlay is "impossible" but I would love it (epoxy glop and all)

I agree with this next point completely, if nothing else, using standard colors that almost always are used with specific units and then changing the unit is a problem, and if I'm being completely honest (with myself) I think it's the one thing that is "proof" to myself that I never fully committed to the base sixty yet. Although I have spent so much time with it as a unit now that its normalized. I had considered using the "traditional" denoms for the purposes of posting, but that's also saying a lot about the decisions and so I decided it was better to not "use" the community in that way, it felt dishonest if that makes sense.

I get that you wouldn't play with the set. I think the clashing thing is something I would possibly brush off if someone came and said "bleh" but I do admit that the tourney points are another thing entirely. If I am going base sixty then I need to go with other colors. This isn't to say that I am not interested in or so not find value in your comment about the stamp and clay clashing.

Thank you psypher! You are definitely a valued member here and I am glad to have your input.

 

[Erich Wise]

Take you time working this out - this will be an expensive endeavour so make sure you're happy and don't rush.

Speaking of expense, each unique hot stamp will require a new die to be made. I don't know how much these cost but given you have so many designs this may get more expensive than doing inlays. Something to calculate.

Also, colour matching inlays is difficult and sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. For your eye designs, it may look great on the screen but the actual product may not. Perhaps try a contrasting background.

Thank you Darson! I am definitely not rushing. I am also aware of the costs of this project, it's not cheap (though cheaper then some of my other past projects). It would definitely be cheaper to just buy up a set of Paulson pharaohs (which I still want) Funnily enough I probably would have done a solids set and had nothing to do with the Ancient Near East except my partner is a scholar in the field so it fun for us.

If anything what bothers me is not making the chips myself and the dies for the hot stamps, next is not developing a real relationship with David Spragg as I have a relationship with most of the makers of my tools and make (or sed to I should say) many tools. But I also don't want to impose my friendship where it may not be wanted. The poor guy just wants to run a business, I will let them. I have been a bit excited to see AK's journey in hot stamping and that's fun (did you see their Diamond Square 10-Cent hot stamps yowzuh!)

My partner came home and laughed when I said the group was talking about values and she said "what, aren't thy a bunch of scrub donkeys?! Suddenly it's all about value, lol" She is still a bit blown away by the three dollars for a one dollar Paris Casino chip I explained to her.

As for the Inlays, yes I agree, and will likely need to switch to say a shaped inlay with white background or something for the eye. I have time.

Thank you!

 

[Erich Wise]

@BGinGA You've been requested when you have a chance

My 2 cents I love the chip colors and edgespots!!! The inlay idea is very cool as well!

Hello FordPickup92! I have found your input on many a forum to be both insightful and humorous! Thank you for conjuring up the mighty BGinGA!

Thank you for the compliment. Would you say you prefer the "full cash" or the Cali color cash? Perhaps a mix? Do you think the Hot Stamp and edges work together instead of clashing?

 

[Erich Wise]

This is a very eclectic group of designs! That being said, you’re going to get interesting feedback that will run the gamut. I think the hot stamps are cool, but like it’s been stated, that’s gonna cost some coin.

I really only have two personal takes on this. 1) I second the idea of the hot stamps being on solids, I don’t see the spots as value add. 2) Keep playing, possibly think about adding in the help of a designer from here. Share your ideas and thoughts, see what they come up with, and have something to compare these against. The best design threads I’ve seen (in my mind), are ongoing conversations where OP and readers go back and forth on various possible spot patterns, colors, design a vs design b, etc.

BarrieJ3!

It's funny I was going to compliment your avatar and my memory of it from other posts in the forum was a cartoon dinosaur, it wasn't until now that I saw it was a tattoo. (now I am hoping it is in fact a tattoo)

1, even if I didn't go with solids this time, I'd likely go with them as either a secondary or main set. After all, the dies would already be made. Is the general rule that hot stamps go on solids and inlays on spotted? Why aren't the spots as value added? (as opposed to others) Is (part) of the point with spots both security and making a stack easier to count across the table?

2. I will definitely bestowing the designs to friends (artist and designers) though I think you might mean a specifically poker chip designer, not to say a poker chip designer is somehow not a designer...your advise is very sound.

Thanks!

 

[Erich Wise]

Wow.... a lot of the out-of-ordinary to ponder and absorb here. Here's an objective opinion:


Cash chips

Edge spot patterns -- I strongly recommend that you reconsider your choices of 1/2-pie and enhanced 1/4-pie base chips. These will not result in aesthetically-pleasing chips, with the underlying clay structures competing with the hot-stamp designs. The base 1/2-pie chip will appear as shown below, with half of your ordered chips having a canary dovetail, and the other half with a butterscotch dovetail. The 1/4-pie chips do not fare much better, creating a background canvas that is unevenly colored causing stamp clarity issues.... unless your hot-stamp design is very small and totally fits within the solid one-color center portion of the chip (which is not how you have designed them to date, and in most cases, would be too small to be easily legible).

View attachment 399092 View attachment 399096

Regarding the enhanced 1/4-pie patterns, generally speaking either solids or simpler edge spot patterns using relatively small spots are typically the best option for hot-stamped chips, from both aesthetic and playable perspectives. In this case, the complex geometry of the hot-stamp designs is compromised by the competing complex geometry of many of the chosen spot patterns. Sometimes less is more, allowing the stamps to be showcased rather than overshadowed.

Hot-stamp costs -- Hot stamp dies from CPC cost about $100-$150 each per unique design, in addition to die set-up fees ($11 to $27 per die change). That equates to roughly $1350 to $1950 in die costs/set-up fees alone, plus the cost of actually stamping the chips (15c per chip). That is no minor expense.

Hot-stamp designs -- Hot-stamp designs work best when using simplistic designs and line art. Several of the hot-stamp designs are extremely foil-heavy, and these types of designs rarely work well in real-world hot-stamped applications -- with associated high error rates during production and resulting in chips that will prematurely show heavy hot-stamp wear during actual use. In addition, the combination of gold foil and yellow/canary colors will render many of your hot-stamp design details near-invisible. Lastly, not having denominations on cash chips is a questionable practice at best for a fully-functioning cash set, and especially so for a set that uses non-standard colors (or appears as non-standard colors due to overly-complex spot patterns and colors, as in this case). The cash chips as a whole would be greatly improved if denominations were included in the hot-stamps on one side.

Tournament chips

Inlay designs -- Both the eye and star designs appear to utilize base color matching so as to appear as solo images in the context of the larger chip face. This approach rarely works well, as many (most?) clay colors cannot be accurately reproduced on the inlay medium, resulting in an image background color that is distractingly different from the surrounding clay (either initially or after time). Either a border (outlining the inlay and visually separating the the color differences between inlay background color and base clay color) or a gradient (allowing the color to fade from the inlay background to base clay, while not requiring that it exactly match the base color) are two ways that can better accomplish the goal within the means and restrictions of the two mediums. Lastly, the denominations -- while clearly legible -- are the weakest point of the design, and look like an afterthought rather than an integral part of the inlay. Consider ways to integrate them better into the design, whether through location, geometry, color, offset borders, or a combination of those design elements.

Color choices -- Using standard color choices for non-standard denominations is not advisable, due to the confusion and inevitable errors it will cause during play -- even with clearly-marked denominations, color is the primary visual cue and it will cause issues during play.

That aside, using dark colors together (dark green, black, and many purple shades) as base chip colors (even with different contrasting spots) is not wise, as those hues are too close to one another and will cause clarity and counting issues when mixed together in pots. A good general rule is that if using a dark color like black, other chips in play simultaneously should be lighter/brighter shades (light or dayglo green and pink or retro lavender, for example), while a lighter base color like grey can be paired with darker shades (dark or retro green and purple or blurple, for example).... although even in those examples, one needs to also avoid similar confusion between the green and purple hues. Your grayscale images also point out the need for these differences in base colors of chips in play together.

View attachment 399135View attachment 399136


Denominations -- Using non-standard denominations in a tournament set introduces an extra layer of unnecessary complexity. Values are harder for players to remember, bets are harder to mentally construct (whether betting, calling, or raising), and both chip stacks and chip totals are harder to count. Regardless of anything else, there will be more mental effort required to play vs a similarly-structured event using standard denominations, with nothing really gained for the extra effort.

If set on using the non-standard denominations, I strongly urge you to change the 12 value chips to 15 value chips (still an acceptable 4x jump to 60) -- this will make the math aspect much easier while they are in play, and will make the 15 value chips more useful for larger combination bets. The T300 will have more value in this set than a T500 in a T1000 environment, similar to how a T500 chip is more integral when paired with T2000 chips.

Summary

Creating this set as a visual/tactile art form is one thing, although I think many of your choices regarding patterns, colors, and stamp/inlay designs could be dramatically improved from that perspective alone. Creating the set as a functional tool to be used for poker is another matter entirely, and it fails miserably in many areas in this regard as described above and by others. Combining the two is certainly possible, but requires a lot of work and compromise, little of which has been addressed so far here.

I'd hate to see a large sum of money invested in a set that both disappoints visually and is not very viable for actually playing poker. The basic set concepts and images are entirely valid, but still need a lot of work to make it a cohesive and finished product.

Holy Crap balls, not only did FordPickup92 summon the mighty BGinGA, but there was quite a bit of generous time and effort put in, I will have to get back to this as I am typed out for the moment...but please don't take offense.

 

[FordPickup92]

Hello FordPickup92! I have found your input on many a forum to be both insightful and humorous! Thank you for conjuring up the mighty BGinGA!

Thank you for the compliment. Would you say you prefer the "full cash" or the Cali color cash? Perhaps a mix? Do you think the Hot Stamp and edges work together instead of clashing?

Hey, names Brie No problem! I think he would've wandered here eventually lol
Anywho, you are welcome. I like both cash options, I'm a big fan of intricate edge spots. Some may say it's too busy, and I can see that as well. However I still think your original mock up is awesome! I do have a slight concern of losing the gold foil stamp in the lighter color chips. I don't know what options you have as far as foil colors for the hot stamps, but I've seen black, and blue in addition to traditional gold and silver. Maybe something to consider if its an option, opposed to changing your chip colors (which you may still decide to tweak)

 

[200 Motels]

So when someone says that Zeus isn't real but Jesus is they are acknowledging that gods die.

They're just atheistic towards Zeus. Most people are atheist towards all goods except for the god their parents believe in. Convenient, right?

I'm glad you're into the feedback.

 

[Erich Wise]

Wow.... a lot of the out-of-ordinary to ponder and absorb here. Here's an objective opinion:


Cash chips

Edge spot patterns -- I strongly recommend that you reconsider your choices of 1/2-pie and enhanced 1/4-pie base chips. These will not result in aesthetically-pleasing chips, with the underlying clay structures competing with the hot-stamp designs. The base 1/2-pie chip will appear as shown below, with half of your ordered chips having a canary dovetail, and the other half with a butterscotch dovetail. The 1/4-pie chips do not fare much better, creating a background canvas that is unevenly colored causing stamp clarity issues.... unless your hot-stamp design is very small and totally fits within the solid one-color center portion of the chip (which is not how you have designed them to date, and in most cases, would be too small to be easily legible).

View attachment 399092 View attachment 399096

Regarding the enhanced 1/4-pie patterns, generally speaking either solids or simpler edge spot patterns using relatively small spots are typically the best option for hot-stamped chips, from both aesthetic and playable perspectives. In this case, the complex geometry of the hot-stamp designs is compromised by the competing complex geometry of many of the chosen spot patterns. Sometimes less is more, allowing the stamps to be showcased rather than overshadowed.

Hot-stamp costs -- Hot stamp dies from CPC cost about $100-$150 each per unique design, in addition to die set-up fees ($11 to $27 per die change). That equates to roughly $1350 to $1950 in die costs/set-up fees alone, plus the cost of actually stamping the chips (15c per chip). That is no minor expense.

Hot-stamp designs -- Hot-stamp designs work best when using simplistic designs and line art. Several of the hot-stamp designs are extremely foil-heavy, and these types of designs rarely work well in real-world hot-stamped applications -- with associated high error rates during production and resulting in chips that will prematurely show heavy hot-stamp wear during actual use. In addition, the combination of gold foil and yellow/canary colors will render many of your hot-stamp design details near-invisible. Lastly, not having denominations on cash chips is a questionable practice at best for a fully-functioning cash set, and especially so for a set that uses non-standard colors (or appears as non-standard colors due to overly-complex spot patterns and colors, as in this case). The cash chips as a whole would be greatly improved if denominations were included in the hot-stamps on one side.

Tournament chips

Inlay designs -- Both the eye and star designs appear to utilize base color matching so as to appear as solo images in the context of the larger chip face. This approach rarely works well, as many (most?) clay colors cannot be accurately reproduced on the inlay medium, resulting in an image background color that is distractingly different from the surrounding clay (either initially or after time). Either a border (outlining the inlay and visually separating the the color differences between inlay background color and base clay color) or a gradient (allowing the color to fade from the inlay background to base clay, while not requiring that it exactly match the base color) are two ways that can better accomplish the goal within the means and restrictions of the two mediums. Lastly, the denominations -- while clearly legible -- are the weakest point of the design, and look like an afterthought rather than an integral part of the inlay. Consider ways to integrate them better into the design, whether through location, geometry, color, offset borders, or a combination of those design elements.

Color choices -- Using standard color choices for non-standard denominations is not advisable, due to the confusion and inevitable errors it will cause during play -- even with clearly-marked denominations, color is the primary visual cue and it will cause issues during play.

That aside, using dark colors together (dark green, black, and many purple shades) as base chip colors (even with different contrasting spots) is not wise, as those hues are too close to one another and will cause clarity and counting issues when mixed together in pots. A good general rule is that if using a dark color like black, other chips in play simultaneously should be lighter/brighter shades (light or dayglo green and pink or retro lavender, for example), while a lighter base color like grey can be paired with darker shades (dark or retro green and purple or blurple, for example).... although even in those examples, one needs to also avoid similar confusion between the green and purple hues. Your grayscale images also point out the need for these differences in base colors of chips in play together.

View attachment 399135View attachment 399136


Denominations -- Using non-standard denominations in a tournament set introduces an extra layer of unnecessary complexity. Values are harder for players to remember, bets are harder to mentally construct (whether betting, calling, or raising), and both chip stacks and chip totals are harder to count. Regardless of anything else, there will be more mental effort required to play vs a similarly-structured event using standard denominations, with nothing really gained for the extra effort.

If set on using the non-standard denominations, I strongly urge you to change the 12 value chips to 15 value chips (still an acceptable 4x jump to 60) -- this will make the math aspect much easier while they are in play, and will make the 15 value chips more useful for larger combination bets. The T300 will have more value in this set than a T500 in a T1000 environment, similar to how a T500 chip is more integral when paired with T2000 chips.

Summary

Creating this set as a visual/tactile art form is one thing, although I think many of your choices regarding patterns, colors, and stamp/inlay designs could be dramatically improved from that perspective alone. Creating the set as a functional tool to be used for poker is another matter entirely, and it fails miserably in many areas in this regard as described above and by others. Combining the two is certainly possible, but requires a lot of work and compromise, little of which has been addressed so far here.

I'd hate to see a large sum of money invested in a set that both disappoints visually and is not very viable for actually playing poker. The basic set concepts and images are entirely valid, but still need a lot of work to make it a cohesive and finished product.

Firstly, thank you for taking so much time on the reply, it is just as easy to say holy crap I'm not touching this one.

I hear your point in the uneven canvas, however I happen to like seeing the structure of the chip, I wouldn't want to cover up the dovetail. No accounting for taste. As for the quarter pies, it is the same, except in this case the structure echoes the stamping ring, I like this detail. Now that happens to be something I like, but I am curious about differences from the real thing as opposed to the design. I am thinking about it in a very different way then you are, as I am thinking about these designs a bit outside the typical poker chip discourse, and equally weighing other elements. There are probably lots of iterations that I have run through and rejected that people would have complimented much more, this is fine, and the feedback is still valuable. As I said previously I am not in a hurry here and I usually change my opinion on things over time and contemplation.

Now, you had mentioned stamp clarity issues, I am unsure if you meant that the design would compete rather then compliment, or if you meant that a different color will stamp differently and so cause warping and errors, though this could also be quite lovely thinking about it. I dislike designs (not really thinking about poker chips here) that fit into spaces and comply. I prefer boldness of statement to limp designs. Now what qualifies them are where disagreements happen.

Ok, I would really love to understand why a complex edgespot design hurts playability, and why would this not apply with an inlay of the same complexity?
I agree that having the hot stamps over shadowed would be sad. I agree that actually often less is more, but it is funny to think of that statement with casino tokens in mind. Also, the ancients actually loved color, and complexity in pattern.

Thank you for pointing out the cost associated with the dies and labor of the hot stamp process, but I am very aware of this and have no qualms with paying people for their labor.

As for the Hot Stamp design...This is good to know, I absolutely noticed that hot stamps rarely had solid areas. This is a good practical design point. There are many hot stamp and foil pressings on other items that do utilize these design elements, so I wonder why these would be different.Obviously they get handled, but so do lots of items. I had simplified the designs quite a bit and took out lots of the line art. I am curious where I could find examples of bad foil wear. I would love to see if it looks good to me. The way a used building or any useful item develops character from its use. Or if it truly would be regretful and awful. The canary yellow can be changed, though I do like the "earthiness" of that combination, and my partner hates the chocolates, even though chocolate and maroon would be a relevant color scheme. However, I have seen Hot Stamped yellow white and other colors and never saw an issue with visibility. But if it is an issue with canary I am happy to change that color, as I am not really a fan of canary with the brass flake anyway. The cash sets do have the denominations on them. Though I believe what you want is a "$" sign and arabic numeration. Though I have seen Roman numerals as well. If the chips had inlays would the spot designs then be taken in with the overall chip to take on the whole impression for the color? The denominations are included in the hot stamps on one side. On this part we may have to agree to disagree.

As for the tourney set...Yeah I still hope to find a way o get the inlays to work as I don't want the color match to distract. having the inlay "mimic" the clay isn't interesting to me, I just haven't found an acceptable design to my eye yet, it all pops too much. As for the units, do you think it is a typeface issue? I have played with numerous variations on what you have sated (clearly not enough) and often a subtle change can make something work or not...I would love if you are willing, to hear any specifics.

Color choices...Agreed. I had considered not having the units on them so that they could be used with "traditional" structure and also with the base sixty when with certain groups, but dropped it. I think if I were to go with the same colors and no numeration and stuck with the "traditional" numeration that might work well, however the base sixty would definitely need its own color standards and numeration listed I think.

I am unsure if you mean that if I use black for a T100 then I should pick a bright green and not the retro? Or do you mean that the peacock blue is not bright enough for the black chip?

I hear your statement about the extra effort in the game regarding the non-standard numeration. (not sure if I agree that nothing is gained, but certainly it has less to do with poker per se)

Changing the value from 12 to 15 would completely destroy the point. If I were thinking of doing that then I would stick to the current standard numeration. Also the 15 would actually introduce complexity in ways that are actually quite profound to the base 60 system. Its like saying why not just make a foot 15 inches. That would make the math much worse.If I were to try and get rid of the 12 I would just start with 60 rather than introduce an odd number like 15. (15 works well enough in a base 10 system, but in base 60 it makes things much more difficult though I doubt you care about these distinctions)

Thank you for corroborating my theory that the T300 would in fact be more equally useful, affecting everything from the ordering number (so the recommended 200/200/100/200/100 would change) and the beginning breakdowns.

regarding your summary, I wonder what would dramatically improve the design? I imagine your thoughts are starting over, lol. If I were using a different theme the set would be completely different obviously, and there are some designs with chips that I see that I adore, but really only work on that chip.

lol, miserably is interesting. I am glad you are comfortable with your opinion, that was why I wanted it. Im not sure we agree on aesthetics and whatnot, but we do agree on many points. at least in principle. I disagree that work and compromise has not ben addressed, but I am not saying that is apparent.

I would hate to see lots of money thrown into this and have it disappoint too! lol. This is why I brought it here, lots to think about. Thank you so much for your generosity!

 

[Erich Wise]

Hey, names Brie No problem! I think he would've wandered here eventually lol
Anywho, you are welcome. I like both cash options, I'm a big fan of intricate edge spots. Some may say it's too busy, and I can see that as well. However I still think your original mock up is awesome! I do have a slight concern of losing the gold foil stamp in the lighter color chips. I don't know what options you have as far as foil colors for the hot stamps, but I've seen black, and blue in addition to traditional gold and silver. Maybe something to consider if its an option, opposed to changing your chip colors (which you may still decide to tweak)

Hello Brie! Funny thing is I am really particular on edge spots, but love this combination, now getting the color combo is specifically difficult. bit I originally wanted a solids set and that was that, lol. I am concerned as well, especially with the canary. I had thought originally of doing the hot Stamos without foil and then gold leafing them and sealing the gold leaf for wear purposes, though this doesn't address the color issue, lol.

 

[Erich Wise]

Many helpful remarks here (especially, see just above), design-wise; still, it's your set and your money.
Where I would be categorical, is that the tournament denominations are un-f*ckin-playable, by anyone but Math PhDs with a twist. If there's enough people like that around you, so be it.

My partner laughed quite a bit at this comment (not at you) because my math is worse then most everyone I know, and many of them are ABD lol. However you really only need to be able to count to five to play this set. There are so many other aspects of poker that are far far more difficult that I'm sure are taken for granted. like 52 cards and odds.

Thanks for the feedback! this wouldn't be my only set, and it would definitely be the only base sixty if it goes that way. I may end up getting some royals and label them with the base 60 and try a few tourneys to see just how horrible it is, lol. If it does work, then green light, if not it's a funny ass story.

 

[Erich Wise]

They're just atheistic towards Zeus. Most people are atheist towards all goods except for the god their parents believe in. Convenient, right?

I'm glad you're into the feedback.

This is true, I've heard people laugh fully at sister religions and their believers but then be baffled why a talking donkey would be not entirely obviously true.

 

[FordPickup92]

Hello Brie! Funny thing is I am really particular on edge spots, but love this combination, now getting the color combo is specifically difficult. bit I originally wanted a solids set and that was that, lol. I am concerned as well, especially with the canary. I had thought originally of doing the hot Stamos without foil and then gold leafing them and sealing the gold leaf for wear purposes, though this doesn't address the color issue, lol.

Have you given thought to color matching labels? I love hot stamps as well so I understand

 

[Erich Wise]

Have you given thought to color matching labels? I love hot stamps as well so I understand

Do you mean like with the tourney set as advertised? I have, and I go back and fourth, or do you simply mean like label overs? I like that inlays are an integrated part of the chip, where as a label is a sticker, it changes the content of it as an object, not as a poker chip per se though. I did think at a couple times that I could have a label and remove when wanting to change it up, but that's kind of a pain and lets be honest here, it would be like having a Murphy bed, that shit is never going to be put up and the couch moved back like the pictures, lol.

 

[FordPickup92]

Yes, not label overs

 

[Erich Wise]

Yes, not label overs

So I have made some tweaks...mostly busy with other stuff, but I admit I am having a hard time letting go of that eye alone in the field of the chip. ZI hjasve however transliterated "Poker Tournament" and have played around with using cuneiform with a lamassu or other creatures. The eye must stay though lol. I did try out the eye with shaped inlay and a red used for skin in ancient Mesopotamia as the background and it is kind of creepy and nice as well.

Another challenge will be coming up with a whole color scheme for the base 60 system if I still go that way...though I do like the T100/500/2000/10000. I have as a placeholder the "papyrus" typeface which both myself and my partner think is hilarious as it is so overused as a font on so many ANE books and we always laugh at that choice. It seems so cartoonish. But I almost can't help myself as it lends a lightness to the set and also kinda elbows at all the scholars who take themselves too seriously. After all PhD's usually know a lot about a little and nothing about a lot, lol.

 

[colter ripton]

Gor to be honest with you


I like it

 

[colter ripton]

Upper left mockup. Different, funky and cool

 

[Erich Wise]

Upper left mockup. Different, funky and cool

Thank you Colter, so you prefer the "full" hot stamp set over the cali colors. I look forward to your input once I post the next iteration of the design, I have to say the set you like hasn't changed much, I did change out the canary yellow.

 

[FordPickup92]

So I have made some tweaks...mostly busy with other stuff, but I admit I am having a hard time letting go of that eye alone in the field of the chip. ZI hjasve however transliterated "Poker Tournament" and have played around with using cuneiform with a lamassu or other creatures. The eye must stay though lol. I did try out the eye with shaped inlay and a red used for skin in ancient Mesopotamia as the background and it is kind of creepy and nice as well.

Another challenge will be coming up with a whole color scheme for the base 60 system if I still go that way...though I do like the T100/500/2000/10000. I have as a placeholder the "papyrus" typeface which both myself and my partner think is hilarious as it is so overused as a font on so many ANE books and we always laugh at that choice. It seems so cartoonish. But I almost can't help myself as it lends a lightness to the set and also kinda elbows at all the scholars who take themselves too seriously. After all PhD's usually know a lot about a little and nothing about a lot, lol.

I do like the layout with the eye as well, if you'd like send me some images of the shaped inlays when you have time theyd be cool to look over. I personally like $2k chips, I know theres quite an arguement over using that denom opposed to $1k/$5k but I find both tend to have the same end result lol I also find your font choice to be a bit amusing as well given the depth of the artwork you've chosen. Seeing the design come together would be helpful for my brain anyway. Imo darker colors with natural/neutral accents would complement this theme well

 

[Steamtrain]

If you offer sample sets I'd love to have one.

Waiting for next iteration!