AK, 600bb deep (1 Viewer)

[Dugthefish]

Regular $.25/.50 home game. Late and breaking in an hour. Almost 6000bb on table, playing like a 1-2. Game has entered a familiar phase where the luckbox is up big, and everyone is trying to get a bite before the game ends. 6 handed. Most flops are going 5 ways, most 3bets get called 3 or 4 ways. 100bb+ preflop pots not at all uncommon.

Hero was down and out, but jumped back in after pouting about cracked overpairs and tripled up quickly on a flopped straight. V1 is LAG regular who is well known for crazy plays and driving action. V2 is new guy, about even on the night, fairly tight but has been loosening up to keep pace with the table. V3 is deep pocketed lockbox, easily one of the worst players. Calls and raises with nothing. He is down but has a big stack. Have been playing with V1 and V3 for 15 years.

Utg V2: 150bb
Utg+1 Hero: 600bb. AKo
Co: V1: 400bb
BB: V3: Covers

UTG V2 opens to $3.50, fairly small open for this Late. Hero calls, hoping V3 3bets so he can 4bet iso. V1 makes it $15. V3 calls. V2 calls. Hero????

V1 3bet range here is TT+, big Aces, suited broadways, probably some other random SAs and SCs. V2 22-TT, broadways, SCs. V3 range bottlecap and napkin.

 

[Mangatang]

Do we know what you're holding or are you playing blind?

 

[Natskule]

Do we know what you're holding or are you playing blind?

title said AK

 

[davislane]

@boltonguy.

 

[Perthmike]

I'm making it $90. Could also flat I guess to go the low variance route.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Are any of your opponents Cuban? FOLD!

 

[Eriks]

Cool hand! I’d make it $100

 

[Legend5555]

I'd make it $90. Your play should in theory look so strong that if V1's range is a normal 3betting range, he should fold with some of the lower pairs that beat you. But if you go 4 ways to the flop, then so be it. You will have $210 and pot will be $360. So if you hit, you get it in. If you miss, you just check/fold. If V1 5 bet jams, then you can fold or call based on whether you think he's even capable of having something other than AA or KK.

 

[boltonguy]

Jeez I would pop to $15x(4+1)=$75

 

[Steve Birrer]

Need to bet large enough to induce at least 2 of the 3 guys to fold. You know better than we do what that amount would be but I'd guess way over pot as others have suggested. On the order of $100.

Frankly at this crazy table unless I was reasonably sure I could induce folds with a large re-reraise I would fold my AK.

 

[Changster]

What hand do you have? You said AK but is it suited? Makes a big difference.

 

[upNdown]

100bb+ preflop pots not at all uncommon.

To me, this sorta takes the wind out of being 600 bbs deep. You guys are just maniacs.

Need to bet large enough to induce at least 2 of the 3 guys to fold. You know better than we do what that amount would be but I'd guess way over pot as others have suggested. On the order of $100.
Frankly at this crazy table unless I was reasonably sure I could induce folds with a large re-reraise I would fold my AK.

I’m with this 90%. But I’ll just disagree slightly on two points.
1) since I can close the action, I don’t mind flatting.
2) IF I was crazy enough to try to chase the maniacs out of this pot, the amount that makes the most sense to me is all of it.

 

[Dugthefish]

Do we know what you're holding or are you playing blind?

Haha I posted this then went to bed. Right before I passed out, I thought..."did I post what my hand was?"

OP edited

 

[Dugthefish]

To me, this sorta takes the wind out of being 600 bbs deep. You guys are just maniacs.
I’m with this 90%. But I’ll just disagree slightly on two points.
1) since I can close the action, I don’t mind flatting.
2) IF I was crazy enough to try to chase the maniacs out of this pot, the amount that makes the most sense to me is all of it.

My $60 game is really more like a shortstacked 1-2 game. I keep the blinds and buy ins low a) because I'm a nit, and b) it allows my game to appear 100% legal on the surface ($200 max win or loss is state law for social gambling).

 

[Dugthefish]

I won't let this drag on, cuz sober me sees that this isn't really that interesting of a spot.

Hero backraises to $100. V1 tanks then goes all in, V2/3 fold. Hero calls, asks V1 to show him QQ. V1 obliges, we run it twice, V1 wins both boards.

Was not a good night for Hero. All in pre's: AK<QQ, KK<AJo, TT ran into a slow played AA, and a crazy PokerStars hand where we got all in pre 3 ways in a $600 pot AA/AA/KK with a K on the flop. Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[jja412]

I flat to close the action. (I'm a pre-flop nit.)

 

[Moxie Mike]

To me, this sorta takes the wind out of being 600 bbs deep. You guys are just maniacs.

The OP said it best: The game plays more like $1-$2.

So in that regard, they're not actually very deep.

UTG V2 opens to $3.50, fairly small open for this Late. Hero calls, hoping V3 3bets so he can 4bet iso. V1 makes it $15. V3 calls. V2 calls. Hero????

V1 3bet range here is TT+, big Aces, suited broadways, probably some other random SAs and SCs. V2 22-TT, broadways, SCs. V3 range bottlecap and napkin.

Flatting in this spot anticipating that the BB will 3-bet when faced with the option of calling to close the action is a very advanced play that requires specific knowledge of villains' tendencies. It's difficult to comment as to whether this was a good idea or not.

It also sounds like the CO's 3-bet wasn't something HERO anticipated. Do they 3-bet often after a 7x open and a cold call?

Typically, this action narrows the CO's range significantly. Competent players will usually not bloat the pot with speculative hands in position in multiway pots. Unless you guys are just splashing around... in which case why post a strategy thread about it?

But since you're described the CO's range as pretty much any two cards worth taking a flop with, AK is crushing or tied with a large portion of his range. In fact, the only two hands that should have HERO seriously concerned are AA and KK - and HERO holds blockers to both.

So HERO can drop the hammer if they choose to - but given the description of the game, a substantial raise or even a jam might get called in more than one place. With three opponents who seem very motivated to take a flop regardless of price or position, it's reasonable to assume HERO shares at least one card with somebody, which significantly lowers HERO's equity against any pocket pairs in the field.

So all options have merit. AK in this spot is just a drawing hand - and must improve to have any chance of dragging the pot. Furthermore, it seems likely that it might require HERO to stack off in order to realize his equity. So HERO can call, closing the action knowing the plan is to fold any flop that doesn't improve their hand. But in order to justify a call, HERO must be willing to go to war with a one-pair hand.

The problem with raising but not all in is HERO probably will be called by at least one opponent, and will miss the flop 2/3rds of the time in the best of circumstances. Is HERO willing to c-bet Jam ANY FLOP?

The case for jamming is directly proportional to the opponents' propensity to fold. I suspect a jam will be called by the CO in which case HERO is probably flipping as an underdog. If there's significant probability that a jam will go uncalled, then that's probably the best move.

The 4th option no one's discussed is folding. This really isn't a great spot for AK. AK doesn't play all that well OOP in large, multiway pots. Furthermore, AK usually only improves to a one-pair hand. Folding AK pre is usually a weak-tight move, but if there's a spot for it, this is it.

 

[Dugthefish]

The OP said it best: The game plays more like $1-$2.

So in that regard, they're not actually very deep.



Flatting in this spot anticipating that the BB will 3-bet when faced with the option of calling to close the action is a very advanced play that requires specific knowledge of villains' tendencies. It's difficult to comment as to whether this was a good idea or not.

V3 is well known for raising and 3betting at any opportunity. It is borderline taboo at our game to give V3 a chance to reopen a pot.

It also sounds like the CO's 3-bet wasn't something HERO anticipated. Do they 3-bet often after a 7x open and a cold call.

Typically, this action narrows the CO's range significantly. Competent players will usually not bloat the pot with speculative hands in position in multiway pots. Unless you guys are just splashing around... in which case why post a strategy thread about it?

V1 is somewhat competent, but does a lot of crazy shit like raising without looking at his cards and calling opens with ATC. He has almost as much gambool as V3, but tends to be a touch more selective and much more aggressive postflop.

But since you're described the CO's range as pretty much any two cards worth taking a flop with, AK is crushing or tied with a large portion of his range. In fact, the only two hands that should have HERO seriously concerned are AA and KK - and HERO holds blockers to both.

So HERO can drop the hammer if they choose to - but given the description of the game, a substantial raise or even a jam might get called in more than one place. With three opponents who seem very motivated to take a flop regardless of price or position, it's reasonable to assume HERO shares at least one card with somebody, which significantly lowers HERO's equity against any pocket pairs in the field.

So all options have merit. AK in this spot is just a drawing hand - and must improve to have any chance of dragging the pot. Furthermore, it seems likely that it might require HERO to stack off in order to realize his equity. So HERO can call, closing the action knowing the plan is to fold any flop that doesn't improve their hand. But in order to justify a call, HERO must be willing to go to war with a one-pair hand.

The problem with raising but not all in is HERO probably will be called by at least one opponent, and will miss the flop 2/3rds of the time in the best of circumstances. Is HERO willing to c-bet Jam ANY FLOP?

The case for jamming is directly proportional to the opponents' propensity to fold. I suspect a jam will be called by the CO in which case HERO is probably flipping as an underdog. If there's significant probably that a jam will go uncalled, then that's probably the best move.

The 4th option no one's discussed is folding. This really isn't a great spot for AK. AK doesn't play all that well OOP in large, multiway pots. Furthermore, AK usually only improves to a one-pair hand. Folding AK pre is usually a weak-tight move, but if there's a spot for it, this is it.

Well broken down, thanks for the detailed reply!

 

[Steve Birrer]

The OP said it best: The game plays more like $1-$2.

So in that regard, they're not actually very deep.



Flatting in this spot anticipating that the BB will 3-bet when faced with the option of calling to close the action is a very advanced play that requires specific knowledge of villains' tendencies. It's difficult to comment as to whether this was a good idea or not.

It also sounds like the CO's 3-bet wasn't something HERO anticipated. Do they 3-bet often after a 7x open and a cold call?

Typically, this action narrows the CO's range significantly. Competent players will usually not bloat the pot with speculative hands in position in multiway pots. Unless you guys are just splashing around... in which case why post a strategy thread about it?

But since you're described the CO's range as pretty much any two cards worth taking a flop with, AK is crushing or tied with a large portion of his range. In fact, the only two hands that should have HERO seriously concerned are AA and KK - and HERO holds blockers to both.

So HERO can drop the hammer if they choose to - but given the description of the game, a substantial raise or even a jam might get called in more than one place. With three opponents who seem very motivated to take a flop regardless of price or position, it's reasonable to assume HERO shares at least one card with somebody, which significantly lowers HERO's equity against any pocket pairs in the field.

So all options have merit. AK in this spot is just a drawing hand - and must improve to have any chance of dragging the pot. Furthermore, it seems likely that it might require HERO to stack off in order to realize his equity. So HERO can call, closing the action knowing the plan is to fold any flop that doesn't improve their hand. But in order to justify a call, HERO must be willing to go to war with a one-pair hand.

The problem with raising but not all in is HERO probably will be called by at least one opponent, and will miss the flop 2/3rds of the time in the best of circumstances. Is HERO willing to c-bet Jam ANY FLOP?

The case for jamming is directly proportional to the opponents' propensity to fold. I suspect a jam will be called by the CO in which case HERO is probably flipping as an underdog. If there's significant probability that a jam will go uncalled, then that's probably the best move.

The 4th option no one's discussed is folding. This really isn't a great spot for AK. AK doesn't play all that well OOP in large, multiway pots. Furthermore, AK usually only improves to a one-pair hand. Folding AK pre is usually a weak-tight move, but if there's a spot for it, this is it.

Go back and read my post #10!

 

[Moxie Mike]

Go back and read my post #10!

 

[AR_poker]

Regular $.25/.50 home game. Late and breaking in an hour. Almost 6000bb on table, playing like a 1-2. Game has entered a familiar phase where the luckbox is up big, and everyone is trying to get a bite before the game ends. 6 handed. Most flops are going 5 ways, most 3bets get called 3 or 4 ways. 100bb+ preflop pots not at all uncommon.

Hero was down and out, but jumped back in after pouting about cracked overpairs and tripled up quickly on a flopped straight. V1 is LAG regular who is well known for crazy plays and driving action. V2 is new guy, about even on the night, fairly tight but has been loosening up to keep pace with the table. V3 is deep pocketed lockbox, easily one of the worst players. Calls and raises with nothing. He is down but has a big stack. Have been playing with V1 and V3 for 15 years.

Utg V2: 150bb
Utg+1 Hero: 600bb. AKo
Co: V1: 400bb
BB: V3: Covers

UTG V2 opens to $3.50, fairly small open for this Late. Hero calls, hoping V3 3bets so he can 4bet iso. V1 makes it $15. V3 calls. V2 calls. Hero????

V1 3bet range here is TT+, big Aces, suited broadways, probably some other random SAs and SCs. V2 22-TT, broadways, SCs. V3 range bottlecap and napkin.

I'd usually say this is a surefire 3bet spot, but kudos to you on reading the game dynamics that you know a squeeze will come in here at some high enough frequency to justify flatting. Though we have to be aware, the call-an-open-and-back-4-bet is usually incredibly nutted (I know I am *terrible* at balancing that line) and should be perceived by others as such. Whether or not other players know that exactly is one thing, but it's really not that hard for people to intuit.

I think we have a great 4bet candidate. I'm happy taking AKo to the felt pre-flop against V2's 150bbs, obviously much more worried about everyone else's preflop stacks. Generally, our 4bets don't need to be that large, since ranges are so constricted at that point anyway, but I'm guessing villain's will be in various parts of the spectrum w/r/t understanding what different sizings mean. I'd 4bet to $45 or so (a little over 1/3rd of V1's post-3bet stack), and likely fold to a 5bet jam from V1 or V3. V1's stack size is partly what keeps me from wanting to go bigger--if we're not particular, it's easy for us to price ourselves into calling off 400bb pre-flop with AK. I'm sure there's some circumstances where that could be correct, but I'm queasy about it here.

Flop play will be interesting, but SPR is going to be *at most* ~2.75:1 (if only the BB calls and V1 and V2 fold), so the money is likely getting in when we connect on flops or turns.

 

[Steve Birrer]

AR I am curious as to your logic for betting $45 or so. Which seems like, according to the description of the table from OP plus pot odds is inducing everybody to call. So you like playing AK in a four way pot?

 

[AR_poker]

AR I am curious as to your logic for betting $45 or so. Which seems like, according to the description of the table from OP plus pot odds is inducing everybody to call. So you like playing AK in a four way pot?

Fair point! I obviously would rather play AK heads up than multi-way.

Mostly my motivators here are (a) I'm trying to play by 4bet range consistently, particularly since this is a home game presumably with repeat players, and 4bets shouldn't be that large, relatively speaking and (b) the SPR moving through the streets. The awkward stack sizes are unfortunate because this kind of squeeze spot seems like the kind of spot where we can 4bet larger than normal, and if there's not a 4bet size I like that also might make me more likely to call and kind of play above my perceived range. If villains aren't thinking about those sorts of things, then we need to decipher how much we should be thinking about them, and where the exploits are.

And I'm also probably extrapolating a little bit (rightly or wrongly) from my regular .25/.50 home game, where some villains would be thinking about ranges/pot odds/etc. and proceed accordingly, and others would call a $15 3bet, see a $45 4bet, say outloud "well I guess SOMEONE has pocket aces!" and make a grimaced fold with their J9 offsuit. Even though that's a shitty hand, it's nice to fold out whatever equity it could've flopped.

@Steve Birrer you're probably right that I need to be more attuned to the table dynamics of OP's game as described!

 

[Dugthefish]

AR I am curious as to your logic for betting $45 or so. Which seems like, according to the description of the table from OP plus pot odds is inducing everybody to call. So you like playing AK in a four way pot?

Agree. $45 is most likely called by V1 & V3 entire range at this game.

 

[Dugthefish]

For reference, V3 overcalled a 4 bet shove for 200bb earlier that night with JTo because "he was feeling lucky about this hand". Jacks on turn and river for him, of course!

 

[JustinInMN]

V2 22-TT, broadways, SCs

If V2's range is this wide, then I think 3-betting AKo is a mandatory play as opposed to going for a back-raise. Then you can fold pretty confidently if any of the tigher players 4-bomb it.

Hero calls, hoping V3 3bets so he can 4bet iso.

Well if this is the plan, the wrong guy did 3-bet it. I personally like the flat here to close the action playing rather deep. You are probably slightly on the wrong side of a coin flip somewhere and you can fold flop misses pretty safely, and you can still get paid on flop hits if the bet looks bluffy. At some point, if it looks like there is no way to isolate a player with AK, which was the plan, then plan B is to take a multi way flop with it (a "pair-mine" if you will), and play hard if you hit, pass if you miss.

I'm not sure if I would want to play for stacks with anyone other than the apparently loose V3 here.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Here's the problem with flatting IMO. Yes you close the action but now you are AK in a 4 way pot. What are you going to do with a flop say of A 10 9?

 

[JustinInMN]

Here's the problem with flatting IMO. Yes you close the action but now you are AK in a 4 way pot. What are you going to do with a flop say of A 10 9?

You are going to start shoveling chips into it. Otherwise, the correct answer is to fold AK pre. (Which would probably be a close second choice for me, bloating the pot pre is a distant 3rd.)

But pre, it's 11.50 to flat to win 50 immediately. We aren't going to have to hit that often for the call to show a profit. If we are that worried about AT and A9, we also recognize the potential to collect from AQ and AJ. Otherwise it's a case combo of AA and other sets.

 

[AR_poker]

If V2's range is this wide, then I think 3-betting AKo is a mandatory play as opposed to going for a back-raise. Then you can fold pretty confidently if any of the tigher players 4-bomb it.



Well if this is the plan, the wrong guy did 3-bet it. I personally like the flat here to close the action playing rather deep. You are probably slightly on the wrong side of a coin flip somewhere and you can fold flop misses pretty safely, and you can still get paid on flop hits if the bet looks bluffy. At some point, if it looks like there is no way to isolate a player with AK, which was the plan, then plan B is to take a multi way flop with it (a "pair-mine" if you will), and play hard if you hit, pass if you miss.

I'm not sure if I would want to play for stacks with anyone other than the apparently loose V3 here.

I think @JustinInMN's comments hit on why I was struggling with a 4bet size here. I'm all for a tricky exploit, but by passing on a standard 3bet spot we've put ourselves in an awkward position with a great pre-flop hand.

Taking the current stack sizes with the likelihood that everyone comes along to any 4bet that doesn't leave us with a gross flop SPR (I'm curious if there's any merit to us 4bet ripping, but (1) that seems v punty, (2) I can't imagine doing that unless our AK was suited, and (3) the fact that V3 is in the pot and covers us takes that off the table for me), I think I've come around on flatting and pair-mining, as passive as that seems with AK.

 

[upNdown]

What hand do you have? You said AK but is it suited? Makes a big difference.

I can't imagine doing that unless our AK was suited

Isn't AK suited like 2-3% better than AKo? Is that a big deal?