Cash Game Advice Wanted: Blinds/antes in mixed game dealer's choice WITHOUT full orbits

CrazyEddie

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Hello, all! I've read a number of (great!) threads about setting blinds and antes for mixed stud and flop games (HORSE, etc). But I haven't seen a good suggestion for how to do what I think I'll want to do when I start my microstakes game, and would welcome your thoughts.

I intend the game to be very not-serious, and will play Dealer's Choice - including dumb stuff like wild cards, Follow the Lady, Night Baseball of the Living Dead, and so forth. Anything the dealer can call in under ten seconds is fair game. I expect to see draw, stud, and flop games and am trying to figure out how best to structure the betting rounds. I'll be using denominated currency-less chips (see here) where the unit chip will be nickels at first, dimes after a while, and maybe quarters eventually (that is to say: after months of running the game, not all in one night!).

The common wisdom on PCF is something like this: 2/4 units small bet/big bet for limit games, 1/2 units small blind/big blind for flop games, and 2 unit dealer ante with a 1 unit bring-in for stud games. That sounds great to me! Here's the thing, though - this advice usually assumes that there's a full orbit for each game, so that the blinds and the antes are fairly distributed between the players.

I could do that easily enough for my game, but I'm not sure I want to. For the audience I'm inviting, I think it would be more fun if everyone got to call whatever game they like each time they deal, rather than having to wait multiple orbits before they get to call their favorite game (even though that would also mean they'd get to play it for a full orbit). I know, not having full orbits means that the dealer's advantage (or disadvantage) isn't evenly distributed - Bob the Clever Player will always call Omaha, and Joe Who Loves Pot Doubling Games is shooting himself in the foot when nobody but him ever calls them. But honestly, with the players I'm expecting, I don't think that's gonna be a problem.

What I do think would be a problem is if the forced bets aren't distributed evenly. The players would probably notice that, and even if they don't, I would. And I would not be happy about it.

Is there a good way to make sure that everyone pays their fair share of antes and blinds when a flop game might be followed by two different stud games and then another flop game and a draw game?
 

Josh Kifer

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.... You lost me literally on the second paragraph. Let's hope people around here and smarter then me.

Wait. We know they are.
 

RowlettTexasChipGuy

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we do it like this:

dealers choice, player one calls 3 card gut, you play till pot is gone

player 2 calls screw your neighbor

player 3 call Omaha, you play a full orbit around the table so everyone has the same cost in blinds and seats on an omaha table

player 4 calls Mexican sweat

player 5 calls NLHE - same as Omaha

player 6 call Omaha - same as above

player 7 calls In between - we all kicj his ass and tell him that is the ending game and save it for later
 

Legend5555

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What do full orbits matter? If the structure for the games is static, it shouldn't matter. In WSOP HORSE tournaments for example, they play 8 hands per game, regardless of the number of players at the table.
 

Rhodeman77

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Use antes for every game, even those that usually play with blinds. It works well.

this Or blinds for every game, even games that use antes.Either way works, you just have to stick with it.

I would ban games that have multiple rounds of passing the deal possible like Follow the Queen where the Queen of Spades resets the hand. It messes up the order of the rotation and can take forever to complete.

But that is up to you to decide.
 

Natskule

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I play in a small stakes cash game like that. All kinds of stupid games, use to drive me nuts, but I've tempered my expectations and really enjoy it.

We just ante for all of them, makes it simple and fair. I still don't like wildcard games though, but I do get paid on them a lot.
 

CrazyEddie

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What do full orbits matter? If the structure for the games is static, it shouldn't matter. In WSOP HORSE tournaments for example, they play 8 hands per game, regardless of the number of players at the table.

The structure for the games won't be static. Each dealer will choose any game they wish and it will be played for one hand.

So, for example, suppose that that John sits to the left of Fred; Fred always calls hold'em and then John always calls stud. John pays the dealer ante for his stud game and the small blind for Fred's hold'em game, while Fred never pays anything for either his game or John's game. That can't be good, can it?

.. I'm probably misunderstanding the point you're making, though.
 

Legend5555

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The structure for the games won't be static. Each dealer will choose any game they wish and it will be played for one hand.

So, for example, suppose that that John sits to the left of Fred; Fred always calls hold'em and then John always calls stud. John pays the dealer ante for his stud game and the small blind for Fred's hold'em game, while Fred never pays anything for either his game or John's game. That can't be good, can it?

.. I'm probably misunderstanding the point you're making, though.
You are. What you are concerned about doesn't matter. Playing stud vs flop games doesn't matter. The per round cost should even out of the stakes are set correctly.

I see where your problem lies though. This is an instance where a single dealer ante is a bad idea. If everyone anted, there would be no issue.
 

CrazyEddie

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I appreciate the clarification, but I'm still not seeing it. Even with individual antes, suppose everyone always called stud except Bob, who always called hold'em. During all the stud hands, everyone pays the same amount. But during the one and only hold'em hand, the players to Bob's left pay the blinds and nobody else ever does. So Bob+1 and Bob+2 are putting in an extra three chips that nobody else ever matches.

... assuming that I'm using antes for stud games and blinds for flop games. I can see that if I stick with one or the other for all games then certainly it all works out; I was hoping someone might offer some additional solutions (such as @RowlettTexasChipGuy 's suggestion of just doing a full round of flop games and single hands of ante games).
 
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Matt G

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We do dealers choice with Ante but any one can call a round of a game with blinds. We play everything no limit but we have all been playing together a long time so its friendly.
 

MatthewTreeTree

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Hello, all! I've read a number of (great!) threads about setting blinds and antes for mixed stud and flop games (HORSE, etc). But I haven't seen a good suggestion for how to do what I think I'll want to do when I start my microstakes game, and would welcome your thoughts.

I intend the game to be very not-serious, and will play Dealer's Choice - including dumb stuff like wild cards, Follow the Lady, Night Baseball of the Living Dead, and so forth. Anything the dealer can call in under ten seconds is fair game. I expect to see draw, stud, and flop games and am trying to figure out how best to structure the betting rounds. I'll be using denominated currency-less chips (see here) where the unit chip will be nickels at first, dimes after a while, and maybe quarters eventually (that is to say: after months of running the game, not all in one night!).

The common wisdom on PCF is something like this: 2/4 units small bet/big bet for limit games, 1/2 units small blind/big blind for flop games, and 2 unit dealer ante with a 1 unit bring-in for stud games. That sounds great to me! Here's the thing, though - this advice usually assumes that there's a full orbit for each game, so that the blinds and the antes are fairly distributed between the players.

I could do that easily enough for my game, but I'm not sure I want to. For the audience I'm inviting, I think it would be more fun if everyone got to call whatever game they like each time they deal, rather than having to wait multiple orbits before they get to call their favorite game (even though that would also mean they'd get to play it for a full orbit). I know, not having full orbits means that the dealer's advantage (or disadvantage) isn't evenly distributed - Bob the Clever Player will always call Omaha, and Joe Who Loves Pot Doubling Games is shooting himself in the foot when nobody but him ever calls them. But honestly, with the players I'm expecting, I don't think that's gonna be a problem.

What I do think would be a problem is if the forced bets aren't distributed evenly. The players would probably notice that, and even if they don't, I would. And I would not be happy about it.

Is there a good way to make sure that everyone pays their fair share of antes and blinds when a flop game might be followed by two different stud games and then another flop game and a draw game?

Example: Ante = $2 / $4

1. Everyone puts $2 before/as the cards are being dealt(either pot it, or wait).

2. The button places $4.

3. First to act, small blind. Last to act is the button. (Yes, even before the flop)

4. If a player wants to call, they put out another $2 to equal $4, before the flop.

5. After the flop, its normal rules, $4 min bet - depending on game there is a "small bet" or a "min bet(like in texas holdem)


Hope this helps, I'm bad at explaining but any question just ask. (All based off Triton Poker Ante Games, and Short Deck Ante Experience)
 

Eriks

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I appreciate the clarification, but I'm still not seeing it. Even with individual antes, suppose everyone always called stud except Bob, who always called hold'em. During all the stud hands, everyone pays the same amount. But during the one and only hold'em hand, the players to Bob's left pay the blinds and nobody else ever does. So Bob+1 and Bob+2 are putting in an extra three chips that nobody else ever matches.

... assuming that I'm using antes for stud games and blinds for flop games. I can see that if I stick with one or the other for all games then certainly it all works out; I was hoping someone might offer some additional solutions (such as @RowlettTexasChipGuy 's suggestion of just doing a full round of flop games and single hands of ante games).

Pretty unlikely scenario though, isn't it? There are plenty of games using blinds besides hold em´ for others except Bob to choose from; PLO, PLO8, bunch of pineapple variants etc. I think it'll even itself out, as long as you're not doing dealer antes for the stud games.
 

BGinGA

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Personally, I've always found changing games every single hand to be pretty unsettling. It's difficult to get into any kind of rhythm, and any positional advantages or disadvantages of a given game are not equally dispersed. Smart players will (or should) always call a game with blinds where position is extremely important (like Omaha), thus maximizing their advantage.

Toss in the inequity issues created when both blind and non-blind games are in the rotation, and it just seems like a bad idea all around.
 

CrazyEddie

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Appreciate the suggestions, everyone!

When I finally get my game off the ground - and who knows when that will be - I'll try a few different things and see what works best.

I too would prefer doing full orbits for each game so that people have a chance to get into the groove of a game for several hands, not to mention making the logistics much easier. But I'm not sure how the players will feel. I intend to emphasize the variety of games and encourage everyone to call whatever strikes their fancy, and I suspect they'll be more entertained if they get to call something every time they deal instead of every orbit-squared.

But at this time that's just speculation on my part. We'll see what reality is like when it actually happens. Hopefully very soon.
 

JustinInMN

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I too would prefer doing full orbits for each game so that people have a chance to get into the groove of a game for several hands, not to mention making the logistics much easier. But I'm not sure how the players will feel.

I made this change in my family game 10 years ago and it's really the only way to play. You save so much time on explanation and all the blind v ante conventions are sure to even out. My family players don't play super fast, but usually everyone gets to call a game after 90 minutes or so.

(I haven't yet introduced them to the glory that is passing two decks around the table, yet.)
 

gmunny

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In my very casual friends-only home game, we do a dealer's choice rotation with ante's only and the Dealer posts the Ante. This game is more social and not serious and evolved from an old nickle, dime, quarter game from high school. The games and stakes have changed, but the dealer's choice rotation stayed for some reason.
 
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I used to play in casual low stakes games like this. Set antes across all games mitigate some, but not all of the different positional advantages are equal between games. Some of the positional advantage differences have to be accepted as a trade off for the variety IMO.
 

MatthewTreeTree

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In my very casual friends-only home game, we do a dealer's choice rotation with ante's only and the Dealer posts the Ante. This game is more social and not serious and evolved from an old nickle, dime, quarter game from high school. The games and stakes have changed, but the dealer's choice rotation stayed for some reason.


What games do you fellas include?
 

gmunny

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What games do you fellas include?

Most of the time its regular stuff, like HE and Omaha with lots of variants like Omaha exchange (deal 3, choice to draw 1 or exchange 2 for 1 before flop), 5 card Omaha (must use 3), Pineapple, Crazy Pineapple. All played high only, high/low with our without a qualifier. Other poker games include 7 card stud, 5 card stud, roll your own stud high/low, 5 card draw (or double draw, stack/roll), 10 card blind high/low (only if 5-handed). Also non-poker games like 7/27, Pear Harbor, Calico, Guts and related match pot games (drop, rock, 3-5-7, challenge, etc). We rarely play games with wild cards or the bug, but have played in the past a few 7 card games like Kings and Deuces and low in the hole wild. Dang i miss our home game! Good luck and have fun!
 
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