Advice needed - playing heads up NLHE with a LAG much better player at end of tourney (1 Viewer)

[Darson]

Last Friday, we had our usual monthly tourney and I found myself in the final two up against a good buddy of mine who is loose aggressive but also a very good player. I'm trying to get a read on him but his range seems huge and he's never involved in hands where he has strong hole cards (unless they're aces or kings). He either wins by very aggressive betting causing folds or by having disguised winning hands such as 2-pairs of low cards or low trips. He seems to play 7-2 a lot and hits trips or two pair. I pretty much started folding if a 7 hit the board and I didn't have a made hand.

In the last hand of the evening, we were broadly even at around 80k each (he had a tiny amount more than me) and the blinds were something like 4k/8k so we were basically at the end of the tourney and the blinds are hurting big time. I'm in the BB with AQo and shoved, knowing he's likely to call anything. He calls and turns 7c8c and the board bricks out for me and he rivers an 8 to take it down.

It's not this specific hand I'm asking advice on but generally, when this late in the game, how do you maintain your stack when quickly getting into situations where a single hand can take half your stack just to see the flop? I'm generally playing TAG but can't wait forever to hit a premium hand when the blinds will suck out my stack in a few orbits. Is it just gambol at this stage or is there something I can do differently?

 

[Legend5555]

If you think you are up against a better player heads up, and the stacks are quite short (20bb or less), then you should just be looking to open jam most good hands and putting him to the test. If he's willing to call 10bb shoves with 8 high though (especially if you have been solid), I question how well he is actually playing.

 

[Legend5555]

Also, just because you saw him win with 7-2, doesn't mean you should be folding on boards with a 7. If he is playing 7-2, he is either not as good as you think, or you are super easy to run over.

 

[Darson]

Also, just because you saw him win with 7-2, doesn't mean you should be folding on boards with a 7. If he is playing 7-2, he is either not as good as you think, or you are super easy to run over.

I'm pretty certain it's the latter - otherwise I wouldn't be asking for advice!

 

[Legend5555]

What were the blinds when heads up play started? You got it in good at the end, so doesn't look like you did anything seriously wrong if you got to even and shoved with 10bb with AQ.

 

[Darson]

What were the blinds when heads up play started? You got it in good at the end, so doesn't look like you did anything seriously wrong if you got to even and shoved with 10bb with AQ.

They were basically the same - we didn't play heads up much - maybe 4 or 5 hands.

I think my friend's strategy is to play low cards - suited connectors or gappers mainly. Since he's playing a bunch of mostly rank amateurs, he knows we're likely to only play high cards (which is probably true) so he doesn't play them. He's probably pretty certain that we either are holding an ace or a pair. He usually raises pre and then if he hits on the flop he'll just make us pay. I have been surprised at a few of his folds where he seemed strong but let it go - thinking back, usually with high cards on the board.

 

[DrStrange]

Heads-up short stack tournament play is a solved game. There are tables showing shove or fold and call (in the big blind)/jam or fold. You can't be out played. No need to tank. Just follow the table and prosper.

DrStrange

 

[jemfernandez]

I second what the good doctor says, try this app out to work on your short stack push/fold strategy https://floattheturn.com/wp/tools/pushfold-app/

Also I would spend time working on your game on how to combat specific player types in tournament and how to exploit their tendencies.

 

[Frogzilla]

In my opinion, head up poker is really tough because the ranges are soooo wide, and your opponent is honed in on you trying to exploit you.

As short as you were definitely play the push-fold game - AQo easy jam, 78s is too loose too call, but it's not as bad as you might think. Especially if he opened it 2x from small (OP isn't clear) - he'll need 40% equity and has somewhere around 38-40%.

And is he really folding the stuff like suited broadways pre so that he has a particular board coverage? And not the traditional LAG approach of just adding more and more hands to those suited broadways? That seems ridiculous and so easy to counter - you can 3bet him relentlessly pre, you can exploit that range w/ cbet when the board doesn't hit it, take passive lines when it does, etc, etc

 

[Darson]

And is he really folding the stuff like suited broadways pre so that he has a particular board coverage? And not the traditional LAG approach of just adding more and more hands to those suited broadways? That seems ridiculous and so easy to counter - you can 3bet him relentlessly pre, you can exploit that range w/ cbet when the board doesn't hit it, take passive lines when it does, etc, etc

It's only now that I sit and think about it, that I'm starting to see his potential play tactics. Maybe he's not folding suited pictures but I'm just not seeing them at showdown - maybe he's not extracting maximum value from those hands or maybe he's trying to shore up his image table image as a drunk cowboy.

 

[FiveThous]

It's not this specific hand I'm asking advice on but generally, when this late in the game, how do you maintain your stack when quickly getting into situations where a single hand can take half your stack just to see the flop? I'm generally playing TAG but can't wait forever to hit a premium hand when the blinds will suck out my stack in a few orbits. Is it just gambol at this stage or is there something I can do differently?

Is the game social or stacked with regs? If it's social, know that most people probably have no idea how to play the middle and end stages of a tournament. Generally the higher the blinds get the tighter social players will play, trying to secure a min cash. You should be punishing this play by attacking low to medium stacks by raising their blinds and 3betting them frequently. Doing this will usually get you a big stack and help you sustain a couple small dents.

 

[Darson]

Is the game social or stacked with regs? If it's social, know that most people probably have no idea how to play the middle and end stages of a tournament. Generally the higher the blinds get the tighter social players will play, trying to secure a min cash. You should be punishing this play by attacking low to medium stacks by raising their blinds and 3betting them frequently. Doing this will usually get you a big stack and help you sustain a couple small dents.

It’s social but all are regs. Having said that, there are two guys who are really good. I have one somewhat worked out - he’s a book player and very numerical (former blackjack dealer who now does advanced simulation) but wins often and doesn’t drink! The other is my LAG friend who is harder to work out. It’s usually the three of us at the end unless LAG or I are drinking

 

[Moxie Mike]

Last Friday, we had our usual monthly tourney and I found myself in the final two up against a good buddy of mine who is loose aggressive but also a very good player.

These are not contradictory terms.

I'm trying to get a read on him but his range seems huge and he's never involved in hands where he has strong hole cards (unless they're aces or kings). He either wins by very aggressive betting causing folds or by having disguised winning hands such as 2-pairs of low cards or low trips. He seems to play 7-2 a lot and hits trips or two pair. I pretty much started folding if a 7 hit the board and I didn't have a made hand.

Sorry I missed this thread. I wish we had more of these types of discussions related to how to play against certain types of players.

I suspect you're perception is suffering from a psychological phenomenon called 'confirmation bias'. Essentially, every time he shows down a junk hand that connected with the board in a strong way, you assume he always plays that way.

There are multiple types of LAG players. The good ones are those who've developed a situational feel for how aggression should be deployed whereas the bad ones are those you might describe as 'spewy' or 'maniacal'. Essentially, they don't know when to pump the brakes.

If they're of the strong LAG variety, you want to have position on them. Having them on your right is favorable. If they're of the spewy type, it's generally better to have them on your left, since they'll often bet when checked to. Having 'relative position' on maniacs allows you to play with much more information, especially in multi way pots.

Most maniacs only know one speed, so exploitative styles are best. If you can be confident that they will bet when checked to, you can check/call or check/raise when you have a strong hand. Just know that by entering a pot against a player like this, you're almost certainly going to be playing a bigger than average pot.

Against stronger LAGs, they will basically exploit anything they think they can get away with. Their aggression factor will be proportional to their opponents' perceived propensities to fold to aggression. The trick to solving this is to put up a fight. Show a LAG player that you're willing to call them down light. If they're an observant player they will be less likely to be betting light in future confrontations. From there, you can then tighten up your calling range so you're not paying off their value bets lightly.

After a while, a leveling war develops. You will pay off for a while, then tighten it up when he shows down more quality holdings. Then when he doesn't get paid off enough, he'll open his range back up until you start looking him up again. That's the beauty in playing against the same players regularly - you get a feel for their game and they get a feel for yours - so you're constantly making adjustments.

 

[Darson]

Thanks for the reply Mike, it’s been several months since I wrote this and I think I have a much better read on him than I did before. One main learning is that the stakes we play are not significant to him so his play is more loose hoping to have some fun rather than necessarily winning a hand.

@MrCatPants you now know who this thread is about, what are your thoughts? Would be interesting to get another perspective from someone else who has played with him.

 

[MrCatPants]

Thanks for the reply Mike, it’s been several months since I wrote this and I think I have a much better read on him than I did before. One main learning is that the stakes we play are not significant to him so his play is more loose hoping to have some fun rather than necessarily winning a hand.

@MrCatPants you now know who this thread is about, what are your thoughts? Would be interesting to get another perspective from someone else who has played with him.

Still learning myself.

What I did start making him do though is really pay to see flops against me when I had a premium hand. I think he started to catch on slightly later in the night though...there was one hand you may remember where someone open raised to $4 and then someone limp called, and I jacked it to 30. It was hold 'em, and I had aces. He ALMOST called with who knows what. Yes, he's gonna suck out sometimes, but he literally raised every single hand preflop from about 10 pm on so unless you raise him hard back, you can't range him at all. I think it just takes more to make him think. - like 4x/5x raises, pot sized bets in HE, etc.

It's amazing how much he's made Dan tighten up. Dan used to be our him.

 

[Coyotesetter]

Snapshove is another great app. Worth the ten bucks.

 

[JackDeRke]

Usually the Problem would be, that he knows, that your check range is too weak.
If you would only bet, whenever you hit a flop he'd know, that he can run you over whenever you've checked. Headsup and shortstacked the ranges get pretty wide, so that you'll have to play a lot of hands just as a plain pre flop shove. Therefore if there aren't too many players in the tournament you should be trying to close the deal sooner than later. That doesn't mean mindless aggressive, but you gotta show him, that you are for example able to check an ace or a king from time to time for example with a weak kicker like a jack or ten.

In the end, if your getting it all in preflop with AQ against 78 you did a good job an it is just down to variance. Over the long run it's a winning play.