AAxx Preflop Decisions in the PLO round of 8-Game Mix (1 Viewer)

[Moxie Mike]

Scenario: $550 8-game mix tournament at the Wynn last month. Game is dealt 6 handed. If you're unfamiliar, 8-game mix features a preset rotation of 8 games and the game changes every 6 deals. ~160 runners. ~100 remain. Starting stack: 20k

It may be worth noting that the rotation does not follow the same format as that on Pokerstars. IIRC, the next game in the rotation was Stud8.

This hand takes place approximately 3 hours into the tournament. Blinds are 200/400 with a 400 BB ante that is not used to count the size of the pot for preflop action.

Relevant stacks/reads:
HERO is dealt . UTG +1. Stack ~20k. HERO's table image is probably that of an average player. HERO's stack has fluctuated up and down with no remarkable hands to speak of.

Villain: Lady ~early 60s. Sits quietly and seems pleasant. Stacks: ~35k. Is the SB for this hand. Has been appropriately aggressive when involved in a hand. Seems experienced in all the games. Hasn't shown down many hands.

Action folds to HERO who raises to 1000. CO and button both fold.

SB raises to 3k.

HERO's options are to:

1) Call and take a flop in position. But the non-nuttedness of HERO's hole cards makes this tricky. HERO strongly suspects SB would only re-raise with AAxx... possibly a false assumption. If SB has AAxx... then she surely holds the ace of hearts and may have another heart with it.

2) Reraise. A reraise of any significance puts a big % of HERO's stack at risk and creates the possibility of a jam from the SB. HERO does not want to play for stacks here. Assuming SB just calls, is HERO jamming most ANY flop?

3) Fold. HERO has position but the holding is weak compared to SB's range.

WWYD?

Spoiler: Spoiler

When the action got back to me, I considered my options. The lady in the SB seemed very confident in herself when she raised. To that point in the tournament, she and I had been at the same table the entire time and she'd only shown down strong holdings. I was convinced she had the other two aces. But is that enough to reraise and bloat the pot OOP? I figured she held something much stronger than just bare aces.

I considered which flops would be ideal for my hand, and I concluded that I'm not going to know where I stand in the hand unless I flop trips or broadway, which just seemed really unlikely. So calling hoping the deck would bail me out felt like a bad strategy.

Conversely, calling hoping for a dry runout just so I can hope to drag the pot with a one-pair hand seemed kind or reckless.

Reraising seemed like a better play. But repopping it to say 8k just leaves me one pot sized bet in my stack assuming the SB just calls and doesn't jam.

Getting it all in on a coinflip just seemed reckless. Doubling up at this stage of the tournament really doesn't greatly improve my chances of winning.

All in all, I concluded that this would be a really bad spot to go broke. It's also worth noting that even though there was still an hour left in the late registration period, I had no intention of rebuying.

So after considering everything, I released the hand. SB mucked face down.

 

[Frogzilla]

Why not play for stacks? I repot

 

[upNdown]

I’m probably flatting here.
it’s not just the fact that you don’t want to play for stacks here, but also because of the format - with all the limit games in 8-game, you have to be careful about pissing your whole stack away in one big bet hand.

You know your holding isn’t great - you either want to see an ace on the flop, or three Broadway cards. You can never feel safe with a wheel, and you can’t make a flush. I’m almost talking myself into a fold here, but with AA that would feel pretty weinie. I think you just have to see a flop and reevaluate.

Edit - I didn't see you had two hearts. I amend my above statement to "you can't make a good flush."

 

[Rhodeman77]

Raise!!!!!! And I don’t open to 1000, pot preflop for the open. There are only 2 aces left in the deck, if she had them so be it, but put pressure on every other hand.

 

[casinochipper22]

I've folded AAxx a handful of times in plo tournies. ICM is much more important than pushing a 5% to 10% preflop edge in one hand. Especially for stacks.

 

[casinochipper22]

I've folded AAxx a handful of times in plo tournies. ICM is much more important than pushing a 5% to 10% preflop edge in one hand. Especially for stacks.

This is at least a call, probably a click back type of raise. 100 players left. Gotta gamble.
I'd fold AAxx in multi way preflop jam fest close to bubble

 

[Anthony Martino]

You're raising in EP and she's repopping OOP here, so she's def screaming strength

I would expect her to show up with the other AAxx or maybe a strong AKKx hand a lot of the time

Given we should be able to narrow her range down, I would call with the positional advantage

I feel like our hand is too good to fold given the bet, stack sizes and positional edge we have, but not strong enough against her perceived range to play for stacks

If she does hold AAxx or AKKx then it's likely the flop is going to miss both of you (barring any flushed flops)

So you can rep a wider range of flops than she can, can obviously naked Ace bluff two suits and have the advantage of seeing what she does on the flop first

 

[davislane]

Repot. No two ways about it. I agree with @Rhodeman77 max pressure needs to be applied. Cant win tournaments playing with fear or not pushing the occasional thin spot.

 

[Machine]

I would call with the positional advantage

I feel like our hand is too good to fold given the bet, stack sizes and positional edge we have, but not strong enough against her perceived range to play for stacks

If she does hold AAxx or AKKx then it's likely the flop is going to miss both of you (barring any flushed flops)

Exactly, with position you can be more aggressive after the flop

It is likely you could have raise preflop with 6-J wraps, then just smooth call the re-raise. and 7-9-10 flop is scary as hell for AKKx (barring any flush flops)

Also, I wouldn't have raise preflop with that hand, its marginal hand at best, maybe on the button.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Spoiler posted.

Why not play for stacks? I repot

Repot. No two ways about it. I agree with @Rhodeman77 max pressure needs to be applied. Cant win tournaments playing with fear or not pushing the occasional thin spot.

In a PLO tournament I probably would, especially if I could rebuy. But this is 8-game. 6 of the games in the rotation are fixed limit. Having a big stack is less critical in that regard.

Raise!!!!!! And I don’t open to 1000, pot preflop for the open. There are only 2 aces left in the deck, if she had them so be it, but put pressure on every other hand.

People were playing the big-bet games pretty tight. Most hands during those rounds didn't go to a flop. 2.5x the BB was pretty standard for the table - and if they'd call 1000 they'd call the max too.

You're raising in EP and she's repopping OOP here, so she's def screaming strength

I would expect her to show up with the other AAxx or maybe a strong AKKx hand a lot of the time

Given we should be able to narrow her range down, I would call with the positional advantage

I feel like our hand is too good to fold given the bet, stack sizes and positional edge we have, but not strong enough against her perceived range to play for stacks

If she does hold AAxx or AKKx then it's likely the flop is going to miss both of you (barring any flushed flops)

So you can rep a wider range of flops than she can, can obviously naked Ace bluff two suits and have the advantage of seeing what she does on the flop first

It sounds like you're advocating a strategy where I'm only dragging this pot if I somehow move this lady off her hand at some point. Going to the flop with a STP ratio of 2.5:1 doesn't feel like I have enough chips to accomplish this.

The entire situation just felt like a trainwreck waiting to happen. And I wasn't in a situation where I had to make a move or get heavily involved since I had plenty of chips to maneuver in the fixed limit games. I just felt like there would be better spots to chip up.

 

[Anthony Martino]

It sounds like you're advocating a strategy where I'm only dragging this pot if I somehow move this lady off her hand at some point. Going to the flop with a STP ratio of 2.5:1 doesn't feel like I have enough chips to accomplish this.

The entire situation just felt like a trainwreck waiting to happen. And I wasn't in a situation where I had to make a move or get heavily involved since I had plenty of chips to maneuver in the fixed limit games. I just felt like there would be better spots to chip up.

I read your spoiler in the OP.

Yes, in tournaments there are opportunities to run bluffs and chip up. Given her likely hand range and you blocking some of the cards she'd be looking to hit, the possibility of a flop that isn't favorable for her holding an AAxx or AKKx type hand make it ok to just call the additional 2K and see a flop with position.

If the flop comes down how excited is she going to be to get crazy with either of those holdings? Meanwhile that flop is going to favor your range since you just called her repop, plus you have the T and 5 blockers in your hand, further making it less likely a flop like that was good for her.

Or if the flop comes down again you have the edge here because you hold the and know she can never have the nuts here.

I don't think a fold is terrible or anything, I just think you're potentially missing out on an opportunity to chip up by taking advantage of knowing your opponents range, having a positional edge over them and expecting her to play fairly straight-forward (i.e. you don't need to hit your hand, you just need her to miss and the board texture to favor your range enough to push her off)

I think your stack depth is deep enough to peel and see a flop here. You also mention this is roughly 3 hours into the tournament, so I assume you're still able to re-enter should you bust?

 

[Moxie Mike]

You also mention this is roughly 3 hours into the tournament, so I assume you're still able to re-enter should you bust?

I only intended to fire one bullet in this one.

 

[upNdown]

Spoiler posted

You know I support that move.
I wonder how many people advocating the JAM have much experience in 8-game or other mixed limit/big bet tournaments.

To me, tournaments are way more about doing (or not doing) the right thing at the right time, much much more than playing any individual hand perfectly. And here, I think you didn’t do the wrong thing at the wrong time. I bet you found better spots later, than playing for stacks in a variance game where you had a minor edge preflop.

 

[Machine]

All in all, I concluded that this would be a really bad spot to go broke.

Yeah, solid play. This is why I would typically limp with it, but 6 handed you gotta feel like 2.5 raise isn't bad at all, and if you can get away from it like you did, why not; That being said I've never played in an 8-game before, not my flavor - the limit swap definitely takes a different strategy.

@Anthony Martino - sound play, but man can it difficult to push after the flop, even if they miss. It does sound like she was a good enough player to lay down a hand if she missed.

Moxie - thanks for sharing

 

[upNdown]

Mike, did you cash?

 

[Moxie Mike]

Mike, did you cash?

No. My bust-out hand was semi-interesting though.

About an hour later it was the last hand before the break. The game was Stud8 and I drew the bring-in with a 6. I paid the bring-in blind and the player to my left completed with an ace as his door card. Action folded to me... I was just expecting to muck junk cards and go to break when I looked down at two more sixes!

I flatted the raise and just called on the next street when he drew a 7. He led again (I don't remember what he drew) on 5th and I raised. He tanked for a second and seemed concerned but ended up deciding to call.

By that point most of my bets were in the pot. We BOTH drew an ace on sixth st and he led out. I guess I could have folded since it was obvious he had 3 aces but I was down to a little over two big bets at that point. So I called on 6th and the river but failed to improve.

He turned over A-7... so he'd made aces up on 4th st. Really no way to avoid losing all my bets there.

I had enough to post an ante and a bring-in in the first hand after the break and despite starting with A-2-3, I busted out.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Yeah, solid play. This is why I would typically limp with it, but 6 handed you gotta feel like 2.5 raise isn't bad at all, and if you can get away from it like you did, why not; That being said I've never played in an 8-game before, not my flavor - the limit swap definitely takes a different strategy.

@Anthony Martino - sound play, but man can it difficult to push after the flop, even if they miss. It does sound like she was a good enough player to lay down a hand if she missed.

Moxie - thanks for sharing

8-game mix tournaments are a capital 'G' grind. They're a lot of fun, but they require a completely different mindset. Every chip is extremely valuable, and are hard to come by in quantity.

Big bet games can be a grind too, but the game gets a lot easier if you're able to chip up early in the tournament. You can win a lot of pots in NLHE just by virtue of having the big stack. You also have a lot of shots to fire - early in the tournament you can see many flops and even if it doesn't go well, you can take quite a few shots before the health of your chip stack becomes a concern. But in games like HORSE and 8-game, you need to be much more selective about the situations you get involved in since even peeling a street or two and folding is a bad result.

I think they're great but they're certainly not for everyone. But as NLHE tournaments become more 'solved', people are going to look for alternatives.

 

[Machine]

Honestly I find NLHE boring, I'd rather actually work.

 

[upNdown]

Honestly I find NLHE boring, I'd rather actually work.

@Machine meet @detroitdad